Can/has this ever occurred??

[robtheplod]

Sat in lots of locks today and looking back as the big gates with all that water behind... do they every fail in a catastrophic way - tsunami type?  just one of those things i think about......!

[Jen-in-Wellies]

You're not the only one to have thought that while sat in a lock! I've never heard of it. Not to say it couldn't. They seem to fail progressively, with a bit of warning. Bits rot off, till some one at CaRT decides it is too much leakage, or the gates can no longer be moved. As long as it is left with equal levels each end once passage is closed, it should be OK till someone gets round to fixing, or bodging it.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Jen-in-Wellies

[blackrose]

I don't think it's a regular occurrence.

 

If the bottom gates of a lock failed it would just be one lock full of water that went into the pound below so not a catastrophe. It would take both sets to fail for a real catastrophe. Seems fairly unlikely.

Edited September 5, 2021 by blackrose

[Jen-in-Wellies]

I recall reading an account of the famous Ailsa Craig trip along the Huddersfield Narrow in 1946. The last one before restoration at the turn of the century. A lot of the lock gates were disintegrating as they went through. They managed OK, but it was definitely the final journey!

[dmr]

One failed on the Rochdale a couple of years ago. I believe that the boat and crew survived without injury.

[Mike Tee]

It was on the various staircase locks I used to look up at what felt like about 60' of wood and feel the odd twitch!

[tree monkey]

Not just locks, I've had similar thoughts in dry socks

 

 

Dock, obviously I meant docks

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by tree monkey

[Hudds Lad]

With that sort of thinking Rob, i’d stay off aqueducts and out of tunnels if i were you  

 

PS, avoid @tree monkey’s socks as well  

[PaulJ]

2 hours ago, robtheplod said:

Sat in lots of locks today and looking back as the big gates with all that water behind... do they every fail in a catastrophic way - tsunami type?  just one of those things i think about......!

I wondered that too on a couple of K&A locks.

As you fill the lock the gate bends further and further back until the mitre faces pass each other! 

[booke23]

It's something that has crossed my mind too....especially in an almost empty lock looking back at the top gates where a sudden failure would be nasty to say the least. 

 

Wooden gates always seem to just gradually fall to bits, but I worry about the steel gates which although last much longer, would also suffer from metal fatigue. I assure myself that someone at the C&RT will have done the sums to ensure fatigue isn't an issue and that they also thoroughly inspect them for signs of cracks......However I'm concerned they are too busy turning tow paths into cycle ways to bother with this type of thing. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

I seem to recall being told that miners preferred wooden pit props to metal ones for that reason. Wooden props would make distressed noises and start splintering when overloaded. Steel ones would just fold up with no warning.

[tree monkey]

3 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I seem to recall being told that miners preferred wooden pit props to metal ones for that reason. Wooden props would make distressed noises and start splintering when overloaded. Steel ones would just fold up with no warning.

As someone who has mild claustrophobia that image of being underground and suddenly hearing the props that hold the roof up creaking gives me palpitations 

[booke23]

8 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I seem to recall being told that miners preferred wooden pit props to metal ones for that reason. Wooden props would make distressed noises and start splintering when overloaded. Steel ones would just fold up with no warning.

 

Yes I remember watching Fred Dibnah on TV demonstrating his chimney felling technique, where he would remove brickwork at the base and replace with wooden pit props and set fire to them. He could tell how much load they were under by tapping them with a hammer....the note changed as they got more compressed!

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 minute ago, booke23 said:

 

Yes I remember watching Fred Dibnah on TV demonstrating his chimney felling technique, where he would remove brickwork at the base and replace with wooden pit props and set fire to them. He could tell how much load they were under by tapping them with a hammer....the note changed as they got more compressed!

As a general principal, it was probably never a good idea to rely on Fred Dibnah for health and safety best practices!

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

As a general principal, it was probably never a good idea to rely on Fred Dibnah for health and safety best practices!

 

Lol.

 

Yes it was not exactly his 'specialist subject'.

[David Mack]

On 05/09/2021 at 17:55, robtheplod said:

Sat in lots of locks today and looking back as the big gates with all that water behind... do they every fail in a catastrophic way - tsunami type?  just one of those things i think about......!

[booke23]

27 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

As a general principal, it was probably never a good idea to rely on Fred Dibnah for health and safety best practices!

 

No, especially when judged against todays standards.

 

He certainly had a couple of close calls with chimney felling over the years. The flip side is he probably only charged peanuts for the job. I wonder how much it would cost to demolish a 250ft chimney these days.....probably have to be scaffolded.

[Captain Pegg]

2 hours ago, booke23 said:

It's something that has crossed my mind too....especially in an almost empty lock looking back at the top gates where a sudden failure would be nasty to say the least. 

 

Wooden gates always seem to just gradually fall to bits, but I worry about the steel gates which although last much longer, would also suffer from metal fatigue. I assure myself that someone at the C&RT will have done the sums to ensure fatigue isn't an issue and that they also thoroughly inspect them for signs of cracks......However I'm concerned they are too busy turning tow paths into cycle ways to bother with this type of thing. 

 

They are presumably designed such that they have infinite fatigue life at normal working stresses. Steel only fatigues above a threshold. I doubt they are explicitly tested for cracks, I can't see it being an issue.

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

50 minutes ago, David Mack said:

When/where was this incident? Certainly looks like what @robtheplod is worried about! Catastrophic gate failure.

[booke23]

13 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

They are presumably designed such that they have infinite fatigue life at normal working stresses. Steel only fatigues above a threshold. I doubt they are explicitly tested for cracks, I can't see it being an issue.

 

 

I'm sure you're right. Hopefully their calculations also take into account 50 years of being bashed into by boats and and thinning due to corrosion.

[system 4-50]

I've never been worried about gates - its the hump-backed bridges with horizontal cracks across the whole of the arch and similar signs of distress that worry me.  I tend to duck when passing under these but I have an idea that this would not alleviate matters if it chose to give way at that instant...

[jonathanA]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

As a general principal, it was probably never a good idea to rely on Fred Dibnah for health and safety best practices!

I think your being a bit unfair on Fred, it was the big 'C' that did for him. Not falling off a chimney or being run over by his steam engine. He came from an era when people took responsibility for there own safety. If you watch him laddering a chimney (plenty on you tube) you will see was very aware of the safety issues. 

[George and Dragon]

2 hours ago, booke23 said:

 

No, especially when judged against todays standards.

 

He certainly had a couple of close calls with chimney felling over the years. The flip side is he probably only charged peanuts for the job. I wonder how much it would cost to demolish a 250ft chimney these days.....probably have to be scaffolded.

 

Doubtless National Grid can help with the numbers. This from a couple of weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9C9ZEBEBtw

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

When/where was this incident? Certainly looks like what @robtheplod is worried about! Catastrophic gate failure.

This incident has been discussed on here before. I think it is Sandiacre Lock on the Erewash Canal. Don't know the date.

My guess is that the pair came into the lock too fast and clouted the bottom gates hard, which 'turned inside out'. Lock promptly drained, with the pair sucked forward until they jammed. But the top gates shut and held.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

When/where was this incident? Certainly looks like what @robtheplod is worried about! Catastrophic gate failure.

 

I cant recall seeing a low wall like that along with a very similar lock cottage anywhere else other than Sandiacre when we ventured up the treacherous dangerous perilous waters of the Erewash back in April 2011.

 

(How time flies)

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by The Happy Nomad