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Dishwasher or no Dishwasher


BPot

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Hi I am hoping this is in the correct category to ask this question.

We are looking at purchasing a sailaway next year and fitting it out ourselves. I am very lucky my husband is very handy and can do most jobs. We have previously renovated three properties but are now looking at moving on to a boat. We have been doing a lot of research and are continuing to do so. 

My main concern is the electrical equipment on the boat, kitchen design layout. I see lots of new builds have dishwashers in them. I am not so sure whether necessary or not. What are the advantages disadvantages of having one on board a boat.. Would the space be better used for storage than putting one in and how much water does one use?

We are currently trying to calculate how much electrical power would be used.

I have a million and one questions to ask, so be prepared for the other questions to come.

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A good general rule is never use electricity to produce heat if t is supplied from a battery, and that includes heating water in a washing machine or dishwasher. It is different if you have an  adequate generator on board but then you run into CaRT's 8pm to 8am ban or running engine unless moving.

 

I would put a washing machine I could hot fill from the boat's domestic water supply before a dishwasher for live-a-boards. Anyway, judging from my experience you already have a suitable model called a husband.

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Dishwashers are mostly a pointless waste of time and water whether on a boat or in a house.  The time it takes to properly load and stack a dishwasher, having first rinsed all the big bits off, is about the same as the time it takes to just wash things in a sink.  And then you're waiting another hour or more for the dishwasher cycle.  For one or two people on a boat, the daily washing up is likely to take around 10 minutes.  15 if you've cooked something complicated.

 

Maybe for very large households there's a place for them but on a boat it's a non-starter.  I think some boat fitters put them in to market the vessel as a premium build.

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Thanks everyone that has replied so quickly to my post.

As I though an unnecessary piece of equipment.

As Tony Brooks said I have  a suitable model  a "Husband"😀

Although he is good at  a lot of things the Dishes aren't one of them. I will have to just keep doing them myself🙄

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4 minutes ago, haggis said:

Dish washers tend to mean you need more dishes unless you want to put the dishwasher on after every meal. On a boat this means you not only have to have space for the dishwasher , which a you say could have given you more storage space,  but you also need more space for more dishes. A dishwasher on board would be well down my list of priorities

Haggis

 

 

 

We had a shared boat which was fitted with a dishwasher which was supposed to be a great plus point for all the owners. Out of 12 owners, only one actually used it- the rest used it for extra storage - and as soon as we could we got rid of it.  To a slightly lesser extent the same thing also happened with the electric bread bin, (otherwise known as the microwave!).  On the other hand, I would definitely vote for a washing machine .

 

Howard

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Most people haven't got them in their relatively spacious houses (have they?), so wasting space by installing one in the more cramped surroundings of a narrowboat would be, as Northerners say, to' daft to laff at. It's not as if they are in any way essential.

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49 minutes ago, BPot said:

I am very lucky my husband is very handy and can do most jobs. We have previously renovated three properties but are now looking at moving on to a boat. We have been doing a lot of research and are continuing to do so. 

My main concern is the electrical equipment.........................

 

 

Is your husband aware that the regulations for fitting out a boat - and particularly the wiring regulations, are VERY different to domestic house regulations.

 

You should really read up on the RCD / RCR (Recreational Craft Directive) which lists all of the legal requirements.
Should you decide to not build in accordance with the RCD / RCR then it is illegal to sell the boat for 5 years after completion (1st use). This is to give the boat 'chance' to kill the builder rather than an 'innocent' who has bought the boat expecting it to comply with the safety regulations. It is assumed that if the boat has not killed the builder within 5 years it should be safe for use by anyone.

 

The RCD / RCR has been recently modified to now apply for the 'life of the boat' and if any major changes are made (new engine, new gas system etc) then the boat has to have a new RCD compliance assessment by a surveyor (cost around £2000)

 

The advice for people doing a 'sailaway project' is to involve a surveyor from day one and get him to monitor your build and 'sign it off' (just as the Local Authority building onspector does when doing a new house build) this puts the legal responsibility for the boat being safe onto him and then you or your heirs are not legally responsible should the boat result in injury or death so a future owner.

 

Edit to add extract of information from a website for DIY 'sailaway' boat builders:

 

 

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

A builders plate – makers details and technical information

A CE mark

A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.

An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety

A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sailaway boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sailway boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Is your husband aware that the regulations for fitting out a boat - and particularly the wiring regulations, are VERY different to domestic house regulations.

 

You should really read up on the RCD / RCR (Recreational Craft Directive) which lists all of the legal requirements.
Should you decide to not build in accordance with the RCD / RCR then it is illegal to sell the boat for 5 years after completion (1st use). This is to give the boat 'chance' to kill the builder rather than an 'innocent' who has bought the boat expecting it to comply with the safety regulations. It is assumed that if the boat has not killed the builder within 5 years it should be safe for use by anyone.

 

The RCD / RCR has been recently modified to now apply for the 'life of the boat' and if any major changes are made (new engine, new gas system etc) then the boat has to have a new RCD compliance assessment by a surveyor (cost around £2000)

 

The advice for people doing a 'sailaway project' is to involve a surveyor from day one and get him to monitor your build and 'sign it off' (just as the Local Authority building onspector does when doing a new house build) this puts the legal responsibility for the boat being safe onto him and then you or your heirs are not legally responsible should the boat result in injury or death so a future owner.

 

Edit to add extract of information from a website for DIY 'sailaway' boat builders:

 

 

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

A builders plate – makers details and technical information

A CE mark

A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.

An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety

A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sailaway boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sailway boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

Thank you for this information. My husband is very knowledgeable about all types of electrics both household and 12v etc and has worked on many different types of installation..

Certainly will consider getting a surveyor to sign off on stages will have to look into that as didn't know that was possible. Would it only be the electrical fitting and plumbing  and Gas fittings or would that also have to be considered for all other fitting as in cabinets wardrobes beds etc? We  have been watching a lot of you tube videos on fitting out boats and of course they don't go into any detail or mention the type of thing you have just quoted. So would be grateful for any information or links you could provide us with to be able to comply to these regulations

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Just now, BPot said:

Thank you for this information. My husband is very knowledgeable about all types of electrics both household and 12v etc and has worked on many different types of installation..

Certainly will consider getting a surveyor to sign off on stages will have to look into that as didn't know that was possible. Would it only be the electrical fitting and plumbing  and Gas fittings or would that also have to be considered for all other fitting as in cabinets wardrobes beds etc? We  have been watching a lot of you tube videos on fitting out boats and of course they don't go into any detail or mention the type of thing you have just quoted. So would be grateful for any information or links you could provide us with to be able to comply to these regulations

 

 

The RCD covers primarily 'safety' and 'environmental' issues - it would not cover things like walls, furniture etc etc, but it will detail what type and size of cable you must use, what type and size of gas pipes you must use, and things like your gas cooker / hob must have a flame failure device.

 

As an example you cannot use "Twin & Earth" cable, you MUST use flexible multi-strand cables (such as BS EN 50525-1 and BS EN 50525-2 Parts 11, 12, 21 and 71.) and the varios sizes, construction and stranding are specified in the RCD standards.

 

What your walls, furniture, and ballast etc will affect is the stability of the boat and the stability is part of the RCD tests - again its all detailed in the RCD documentation and involves adding weight to the side of the boat and determining the 'list' (how much it leans) and how many people the boat can be 'rated to carry' ISO 12217-1 is the standard for measuring the stability of your boat.

 

Some people elect not to build in accordance with the RCD requirements and that is legally acceptable BUT some people are finding it increasingly difficult to sell their boat years 'down the line' without the correct paperwork.

 

I am not suggesting you must build to the RCD / RCR but simply informing you of the potential problems of not doing so - the choice is yours, and yours alone but at least you are making an informed choice with the knowledge of the potential implications.

 

I would strongly suggest that if you are unsure, that you do some in depth research into the RCD (since Brexit it is now called the RCR) and think about the future - will you be happy with the boat in 3 years time or will you want to 'trade-up'. If you have an accident and can no longer use the boat are you prepared to keep the boat until it is more than 5 years old before you can sell it ?

 

I have happily bought boats without the RCD documentation as their 'market valued' can be decreased tremendously - I bought one boat at £80,000 below its market / asking price because it did not have either the RCD paperwork or the VAT paid certificate. I was subsequently (long story) able to get all of the correct paperwork but its is not easy.

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3 hours ago, BPot said:

Thanks everyone that has replied so quickly to my post.

As I though an unnecessary piece of equipment.

As Tony Brooks said I have  a suitable model  a "Husband"😀

Although he is good at  a lot of things the Dishes aren't one of them. I will have to just keep doing them myself🙄

If you look up the husband manual, which surely must be somewhere on the web, it will include a section on adapting them for dishwashing and other domestic uses.

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There is no reason why you cannot have what electrical items you may need if the system is correctly design.

Get in the 21st century when comes to electrical design.

 

I do hope you will be using 24-volts not the out dated 12-volts. or may be 48-volts?

Edited by Keith M
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17 minutes ago, Keith M said:

There is no reason why you cannot have what electrical items you may need if the system is correctly design.

Get in the 21st century when comes to electrical design.

 

I do hope you will be using 24-volts not the out dated 12-volts. or may be 48-volts?

Thank you Keith, Although I Call him an old F.... he is definitely very modern and up-to-date with his electrical knowledge  So yes will be  doing 24v and 12v I think. Unfortunately I am not the technical one But Hubby is and I have over the last two weeks totally go glazed over when he gets all technical He is currently looking at solar panel output etc and batteries of which I have no idea what he is talking about.  He just want me to decide what is necessary as far as electrical on the boat and as We had seen several boats fitted with dishwashers thought there maybe some reason that I can't think of as to why they would be good or necessary on a boat. So decision made no need for dishwasher

Just need to get the Husband manual as suggested by Arthur Marshal see if I can program him to do dishes 😁 

the boat will be definitely in the 21st century👍

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3 hours ago, BPot said:

Thanks everyone that has replied so quickly to my post.

As I though an unnecessary piece of equipment.

As Tony Brooks said I have  a suitable model  a "Husband"😀

Although he is good at  a lot of things the Dishes aren't one of them. I will have to just keep doing them myself🙄

 

I detect the need for a training programme in your household.

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Boat fitters, like caravan manufacturers, have worked out that the best way to sell their products is by providing all the mod cons that people have at home.  So when Ivor Loadacash rolls up with his wife trying to persuade her to buy one of these things, she can't raise too many objections.   

 

Having said that I do remember meeting a guy whose wife had to bribe him with a 55 inch TV before he would agree to buy a narrowboat, that's probably more ridiculous than a dishwasher. 

 

 

 

   

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An alternative view is, if used properly a dishwasher uses less water than washing up, if you have enough solar or use it whilst cruising it may be easier to replace the electricity than topping up the water. Not cheaper, just easier.

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4 hours ago, Athy said:

Most people haven't got them in their relatively spacious houses (have they?)

Not everyone has a dishwasher at home. In my  house a dishwasher was required otherwise my wife threatened to give up working. That was in the 1990's.

But not  required on a boat.

 

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I am worried about your husband more than the washing machine dryer what about all the things he needs to survive CNC router 3D printer laser cutter hanger for all the RC models bear cooler has been suss a bucket on a piece of string over the side. And washing dishes can not be a Manley thing to do may be cleaning a diesel pump in the sink not dishes

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22 hours ago, BPot said:

Hi I am hoping this is in the correct category to ask this question.

We are looking at purchasing a sailaway next year and fitting it out ourselves. I am very lucky my husband is very handy and can do most jobs. We have previously renovated three properties but are now looking at moving on to a boat. We have been doing a lot of research and are continuing to do so. 

My main concern is the electrical equipment on the boat, kitchen design layout. I see lots of new builds have dishwashers in them. I am not so sure whether necessary or not. What are the advantages disadvantages of having one on board a boat.. Would the space be better used for storage than putting one in and how much water does one use?

We are currently trying to calculate how much electrical power would be used.

I have a million and one questions to ask, so be prepared for the other questions to come.

Before buying anything, be aware of the forth coming changes to emission regulations, it may be better(more expensive) to specify a Hybrid or all electric propulsion system, that will be saleable in the future, rather than an old diesel-powered system.

 

Bod

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