Dishwasher or no Dishwasher

[Neil2]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Government documents which I have posted on this forum many times over the last couple of years.

 

Has been totally poo-pood on the forum "it'll never happen" and "I don't care, I'll not be boating by 2050" and now it is happening folks are starting to panic.

 

Ask any boat builder, some are already moving production to only electric boats.

 

Examples of the fact that it includes Inland waterways boats :

 

 

Page 11 :

 

"..for standardising environmental
regulations for vessels operating
domestically within the UK, including
inland waterways....."

 

Page 12

"..... the RTFO
currently applies to fuel suppliers for the
non-road mobile machinery (NRMM)
sectors, the definition of which includes
inland shipping and recreational craft that
do not normally operate at sea......"

 

 

Page 20

"..... emissions from vessels operating
domestically within the UK, including
inland waterways....The aim of this work
is to collect a body of evidence that
will give a clearer picture of the extent
of emissions from domestic and inland
waterway vessels.."

 

I think you're quoting from the Transport Department's "Clean Maritime Plan" there, but there are no specific targets as far as I know.  I was asking where you obtained the requirements that:

 

1) From 2025 No new boat can be built unless its propulsion method can be modified to utilise Zero emission propulsion

2) From 2035 No new boat can be built unless it has a zero emission propulsion method.

3) From 2050 all boats MUST have zero emission propulsion and any othe boats must be removed from the water.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I think you're quoting from the Transport Department's "Clean Maritime Plan" there, but there are no specific targets as far as I know.  I was asking where you obtained the requirements that:

 

1) From 2025 No new boat can be built unless its propulsion method can be modified to utilise Zero emission propulsion

 

You need to read all of the associated documents as well, but, taken from the document you quote, what is your understanding of the paragraph :

 

By 2025 we expect that:  All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability

[Richard10002]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You need to read all of the associated documents as well, but, taken from the document you quote, what is your understanding of the paragraph :

 

By 2025 we expect that:  All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability

It doesn’t seem to mean what you have been saying it means.

 

What is your understanding of the word, “expect”? It sounds a bit more hopeful, rather than certain to me.

 

Does the same word apply to each of the sentences where you have used the word “must”?

[Neil2]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You need to read all of the associated documents as well, but, taken from the document you quote, what is your understanding of the paragraph :

 

By 2025 we expect that:  All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability

 

"We expect that"...?  WTF does that mean?  If the intention is to ensure that all new boats have zero emission capability (whatever that is) why not say "we will require" or "we will legislate" or something concrete.   It's because the intention of that document is to make it look as if the government are doing something whilst at the same time not sending the industry into a blind panic. 

 

Frankly that entire document is so full of waffle and non specifics it's almost admirable.   

[Guest]

So something Alan has been scaremongering about for months turns out, under more scrutiny to be an aspiration rather than being the same as the issues that will actually affect drivers of petrol and diesel cars.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[Momac]

8 hours ago, Athy said:

That's just nearly seven gallons in English - which does sound quite a lot for three washing-uppings a day.

30 Litres is in English also ☺️

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Government documents which I have posted on this forum many times over the last couple of years.

 

Has been totally poo-pood on the forum "it'll never happen" and "I don't care, I'll not be boating by 2050" and now it is happening folks are starting to panic.

 

What action have you taken in respect of your boats?

[MtB]

On 01/09/2021 at 13:38, Alan de Enfield said:

Some people elect not to build in accordance with the RCD requirements and that is legally acceptable BUT some people are finding it increasingly difficult to sell their boat years 'down the line' without the correct paperwork.

 

Who would they be then? 

 

I hold that this is a non-problem invented by you and "most' people who self build have no difficulty in selling after five years or more, in the unlikely event of them deciding to. 

[doratheexplorer]

12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Government documents which I have posted on this forum many times over the last couple of years.

 

Has been totally poo-pood on the forum "it'll never happen" and "I don't care, I'll not be boating by 2050" and now it is happening folks are starting to panic.

 

 

Is anyone starting to panic though?  29 years is a long, long time.  What I can guarantee is that if there are lots of diesel engine boats still going around the canals in 2050, and there's no simple conversion available, then an exemption will be granted.  The alternative of dragging thousands of vessels out to rust on hardstanding is not just impractical, it would make for some very poor headlines for the government responsible (making thousands homeless, creating eyesores etc...)

 

In any case, isn't bio-diesel effectively zero carbon anyway? 

 

This is a non-issue.

[Bee]

Its surely no big deal to fit an electric motor in the hole left by a diesel engine and a great big heap of batteries can be crowbarred in somewhere so that is something else not to worry about. More likely is that the few human survivors will be living in caves and eating those other great survivors - cockroaches, mmm lovely with a bit of HP sauce with a side of woodlice.

[Neil2]

If you wanted to be charitable to this government, and I personally don't...  But you could argue that what they are doing is a sort of "friendly persuasion", flagging up the issues which yes we should all be rightly concerned about, and then maybe enough of us will decide to do the right thing and look at alternatives to fossil fuels.

 

But the problem is - as highlighted in another current thread - whether it's new build or retro fitting, converting to electric propulsion or some form of hybrid system is horrifically expensive and the industry is a long way from developing a truly financially viable system.  Electric power really is a rich man's game at the moment, unless you have enough skill and knowledge to DIY but that's probably less a than 1% of canal boaters.

 

 

[Detling]

Back on topic. Are there any environment friendly dishwasher tablets? given that the waste goes straight into the canal.

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Detling said:

Back on topic. Are there any environment friendly dishwasher tablets? given that the waste goes straight into the canal.

 

 

I suspect they all are because of environmental regs re phosphates. It is just that they are not sold on the plan based, so must be green banner. I would like to know more about the rinse aid content and what gives dishwasher washed items the shine, though. I very much doubt the amount a boater or group of boaters put into the canal will make a measurable difference when you look at the volumes of sewerage farm discharged running down the Shroppie.

[Momac]

3 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

 

In any case, isn't bio-diesel effectively zero carbon anyway? 

Change to HVO and the job is done. We can do that now . There is no need to wait.

HVO is not zero emissions but it is much reduced emissions compared to mineral diesel.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Detling said:

Back on topic. Are there any environment friendly dishwasher tablets? given that the waste goes straight into the canal.

 

A grey water tank is required in some locations outside of the  the UK but we are allowed to discharge grey water into the inland waterways.

Even if discharging from a house or other premises the detergent/chemicals are not removed by sewage works , which then discharge to watercourses .

[doratheexplorer]

27 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Change to HVO and the job is done. We can do that now . There is no need to wait.

HVO is not zero emissions but it is much reduced emissions compared to mineral diesel.

Reduced emmissions and little or no carbon footprint - yes.

 

But still a significant environmental impact which shouldn't be ignored.

 

https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/4/6/845

[Alan de Enfield]

On 02/09/2021 at 21:57, Neil2 said:

"We expect that"...?  WTF does that mean? 

 

I think you may not be understanding 'Government speak'.

 

The Government has already introduced (and signed up to) the fact that they are going to achieve certain targets for emissions in a number of sectors (Marine, Aviation, Vehicles etc) and this document is the method of 'how we achieve those figures'.

 

We 'expect' means that it is intended to happen - "we expect you to finish that work load by Friday"

[Dave Potter]

has anyone realised that the stuff that they are going to replace desal with is a bigger problem than desal that's is way it is being made in china.

nucellar power was going to give us free power for everyone what did it give us place like Chernobyl disaster  

[Neil2]

36 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think you may not be understanding 'Government speak'.

 

The Government has already introduced (and signed up to) the fact that they are going to achieve certain targets for emissions in a number of sectors (Marine, Aviation, Vehicles etc) and this document is the method of 'how we achieve those figures'.

 

We 'expect' means that it is intended to happen - "we expect you to finish that work load by Friday"

 

Oh believe me, I understand "Government speak".

 

I used to be a policy officer in a large local government department.  I was responsible for writing stuff like this and I know the difference between specific targets and meaningless waffle, which this government is becoming depressingly good at.

 

 

[George and Dragon]

On 01/09/2021 at 12:22, haggis said:

Dish washers tend to mean you need more dishes unless you want to put the dishwasher on after every meal. On a boat this means you not only have to have space for the dishwasher , which a you say could have given you more storage space,  but you also need more space for more dishes. A dishwasher on board would be well down my list of priorities

Haggis

 

The trick is to have two dishwashers: one you're filling with dirty crockery, cutlery, etc and another you're emptying the clean stuff out of to use. You can reduce your cupboard space to match. :tongue-in-cheek:

[George and Dragon]

On 02/09/2021 at 13:57, Athy said:

That's just nearly seven gallons in English - which does sound quite a lot for three washing-uppings a day.

It's even more in American