Converting to hybrid power... engine replacement etc?

[Sir Nibble]

17 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

Sheesh,  retro or new build these are pretty eye watering figures.  I can see the appeal but I can't imagine who is shelling out for these systems.  

 

Those BellMarine motors are rated at peak power, ie in reality the 15w motor is 10kw.  I don't know what that means in HP but if 15kw is about 20HP it suggests to me that even after forking out £50k the boat might be underpowered.  I'm happy to be educated on the characteristics of electric motors though, I know the torque characteristics are very different but not sure what this means in practice on a boat.

The thing most people get wrong is thinking that a hybrid system is a replacement for a diesel engine. It's not, it's a replacement for the gearbox, with slip built in from new. It's less efficient and therefore fuel thirsty. The only advantage is the ability to use alternative inputs such as solar but you need an awful lot to make a difference. 

[Bee]

https://www.crownoil.co.uk/products/hvo-fuel-hydrotreated-vegetable-oil/   Apologies if this has already been mentioned but its something to think about.  I am working on snake oil in my shed, excellent results so far, I need a cash injection to bring it to market.  Investors please send cheques to.....

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Sir Nibble said:

The thing most people get wrong is thinking that a hybrid system is a replacement for a diesel engine. It's not, it's a replacement for the gearbox, with slip built in from new. It's less efficient and therefore fuel thirsty. The only advantage is the ability to use alternative inputs such as solar but you need an awful lot to make a difference. 

Diesels are efficient under heavy loads, under light loads like in a narrowboat they're much less efficient, and even worse when going slowly or in locks.

 

A series hybrid will typically use 40% less fuel than a diesel in a narrowboat even if all the power comes from the generator, or 70% if half the power comes from solar. These figures come from calculations including all the losses, and have been confirmed by measurements.

 

Figures have been provided multiple times in other threads explaining in detail why this is, I suggest you read them 😉

Edited September 3, 2021 by IanD

[nicknorman]

Well anyway, I’m holding out for fusion power. It’ll only be another 30 years, apparently. Plenty of heat and power and a warm glowing feeling (if the containment leaks) and all run off a cupful of canal water. What’s not to like? And by then my lithium batteries will have matured and will be repurposed as the fusion catalyst.

[peterboat]

6 hours ago, IanD said:

It's possible because newer cars can do it, but needs very sophisticated (and expensive!) electronics and cooling systems -- and means using HV batteries (400V or now 800V) to reduce losses, with big safety issues.

 

It's unlikely that boaters would ever need to fast-charge even 10% to 90% SoC (would you run down to 10% and rely on the only charge point within reach still working?), a more typical 40% to 80% can be done in less than 30min at 1C. But even this probably won't happen because the cost of the charging equipment on the boat rises as the maximum current does, so any charging rate higher than the motor power rating is unlikely. If you have a 15kW motor and a 35kWh battery, you won't want to charge faster than about 0.4C-0.5C -- which means about an hour for a typical charge, and no battery cooling, and no added drive system cost. Still needs a 65A mains feed though...

 

(cars have much higher power higher voltage motors, can typically discharge at up to 4C so fast charging is almost "free")

 

If you're in such a hurry that you *have* to fill your water tank *and* recharge in 30mins, maybe a canal is the wrong place for you and you should be on a motorway? 😉

 

(also if you have a decent size tank, how many water points will fill it up in 30m? Not a lot from my experiences, a watering can would be faster than some water points...)

 

P.S. Nick, "you" in the Yorkshire sense, I'm not aiming at you in person 😉

I am laughing at the water point not at the rest which I agree with Ian 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

https://www.crownoil.co.uk/products/hvo-fuel-hydrotreated-vegetable-oil/   Apologies if this has already been mentioned but its something to think about.  I am working on snake oil in my shed, excellent results so far, I need a cash injection to bring it to market.  Investors please send cheques to.....

I am using it mate its great stuff 10 year life and doesn't absorb water and is a drop in replacement for diesel. On the plus side it smells nicer from the exhaust and cost .79 pence a litre 

2 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

The thing most people get wrong is thinking that a hybrid system is a replacement for a diesel engine. It's not, it's a replacement for the gearbox, with slip built in from new. It's less efficient and therefore fuel thirsty. The only advantage is the ability to use alternative inputs such as solar but you need an awful lot to make a difference. 

I have that big solar input and the 6kw genny, the genny doesn't get much use

[IanD]

45 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Well anyway, I’m holding out for fusion power. It’ll only be another 30 years, apparently. Plenty of heat and power and a warm glowing feeling (if the containment leaks) and all run off a cupful of canal water. What’s not to like? And by then my lithium batteries will have matured and will be repurposed as the fusion catalyst.

Fusion power -- 30 years away, for the last 60 years... 😉

[MtB]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

A series hybrid will typically use 40% less fuel than a diesel in a narrowboat even if all the power comes from the generator, or 70% if half the power comes from solar. These figures come from calculations including all the losses, and have been confirmed by measurements.

 

 

Also confirmed by practical experience. The hybrid boater I had a chat with the other day said one day of cruising with the diesel lump charging gave them three days of 'lectric boating. Or two if they also caned the washing machine, immersion heater and electric oven and hob for cooking. Or something along those lines, which changed my perception of hybrids. 

[Thames Bhaji]

14 hours ago, peterboat said:

I am using it mate its great stuff 10 year life and doesn't absorb water and is a drop in replacement for diesel.

That’s interesting - how / where do you buy it? I’m going to look into options on the Thames. 

[MtB]

14 hours ago, peterboat said:

I am using it mate its great stuff 10 year life and doesn't absorb water and is a drop in replacement for diesel. On the plus side it smells nicer from the exhaust and cost .79 pence a litre 

 

Same question from me! 

 

You also mentioned buying 1000 litres of it IIRC. Did you buy it from Crown Oils in one of their 1,000 litre crate things? Did they unload it from the lorry for you? Did they have any stipulations about where it could be delivered? 

 

I also note Crown are seeking people interested in trialing a "CrownCube" of HVO.

 

"We’re proud to offer CrownCube fuel stations to ensure the safe storage of your alternative fuels. The tanks come in either 5,300-litre, 10,000 litre or 20,000-litre capacity and offer superior security for stationary fuelling. Featuring a full-height lockable cabinet and secure hose access, these bulk storage units are perfect for long-term projects. With a 110% bunded design that complies with BS799 Part 5, the CrownCube ensures an environmentally safe solution for bulk fuel storage.

We can also offer a flexible trial package which includes a sustainable fuel station loan. Call us today on 0330 107 1329 to discuss the various options available."

 

 

[peterboat]

35 minutes ago, Thames Bhaji said:

That’s interesting - how / where do you buy it? I’m going to look into options on the Thames. 

 

22 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Same question from me! 

 

You also mentioned buying 1000 litres of it IIRC. Did you buy it from Crown Oils in one of their 1,000 litre crate things? Did they unload it from the lorry for you? Did they have any stipulations about where it could be delivered? 

 

I also note Crown are seeking people interested in trialing a "CrownCube" of HVO.

 

"We’re proud to offer CrownCube fuel stations to ensure the safe storage of your alternative fuels. The tanks come in either 5,300-litre, 10,000 litre or 20,000-litre capacity and offer superior security for stationary fuelling. Featuring a full-height lockable cabinet and secure hose access, these bulk storage units are perfect for long-term projects. With a 110% bunded design that complies with BS799 Part 5, the CrownCube ensures an environmentally safe solution for bulk fuel storage.

We can also offer a flexible trial package which includes a sustainable fuel station loan. Call us today on 0330 107 1329 to discuss the various options available."

 

 

1000 litre IBCs I have a secure area for them, the lorry had a tail lift and electric pallet truck, I had one of those pallet trucks that can lift I meter high to raise it so it's easy to use.

Next time they should fill the IBC for us so its easier. 

Yes it was crown oils I have a long time account with them 

Edited September 4, 2021 by peterboat

[David Mack]

But do you need a bunded storage area for an IBC?

[cuthound]

On 07/09/2021 at 11:37, David Mack said:

But do you need a bunded storage area for an IBC?

 

If it is stored outside in the UK, yes.

 

The Control of Pollution (Oil Storage) (England) regulations require 110% capacity bunding for any oil storage of 200 litres and above.

 

The equivalent Scottish regulations cover all ol storsge facilites of 200 litres a d sbove, even if they are indoors.