Converting to hybrid power... engine replacement etc?

[nb Innisfree]

19 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Didn't the French come to that way of thinking about 50 years ago with small turbo engines

 

Prob with small turbo engines is the near constant revs needed to keep in economical zone which involves multiple gears (8 speed or more) 

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, jpcdriver said:

Doing a steady 70mph on flat ground yes the engine will be  on all the time. For that period it is probably very similar to a normal ICE in consumption. However that is not the steady state conditions for the whole of a 200 mile motorway run. You made a very general assertion that hybrids "had worse fuel consumption than a “normal” car on a long motorway run", which from my experience is not true. I have driven Toyota hybrids since 2004 and even the 2004 model could get between 55 and 60mpg on a York to London journey and the later models have improved from that point.

 

If you don't want to learn anything more about the technologies, fair enough, but please don't continue propogating falsehoods out of your ignorance.

There are plenty of cars around that can achieve 55-60mpg on a long motorway run at legal speeds. So perhaps I slightly overstated my point, but still it is a valid point that fuel consumption for a hybrid on a long motorway journey is very similar to that for an ICE car despite the additional cost and complexity of the hybrid system. Start stop city traffic is of course a different matter and where hybrids shine.

 

As to the technology you haven’t mentioned anything that I didn’t already understand but clearly it’s important for you to know more than me, so let’s keep you happy. 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

They are going to do kits Ian, when I chatted to Riccy last I asked him about it, I think we have discussed this before it was with secondhand leaf batteries which should work well and are easily sourced

Maybe, but I'll believe it when I see it 🙂

 

Sourcing and checking the components and providing support to newbie installers will consume a lot of time and effort, and unless there's a big markup (pushing the price up) it won't be worth it, spending the same amount of time and effort on new boats is better business. It might work if they supply the kit to installers who understand it and then do the installation, but they will then add their own markup which will push the price up more. If you just sell the kits direct to private individuals then you have a major hassle with things like warranty claims from people who do it wrong, which going by posts and blogs I've read is likely to be a lot of people.

 

Trust me, I'm well familiar with this kind of issue, we often get asked if we can supply individual components rather than finished products, and the answer is almost always no -- the only exception is to go via resellers or direct to bigger customers who are capable of doing their own support. What kills this is margin stacking by everyone in the chain, and also the support time/effort required, which should definitely not be underestimated for this kind of kit.

 

You only have to look on the Victron community forums at the pleas for help by people who've bought gear at the lowest possible price (without any support from the retailer), throw it together themselves, and find problems; the answer is always "Victron don't support individual end customers directly, please consult your supplier" -- which is fine if they've done all the training and know what they're doing and support the product, but suppliers who've done this understandably charge higher prices to cover their costs.

 

Selling the kit directly at low cost to people who understand it (like you and Nick) might work, but the problem is how to distinguish you few from the other 95% of "ooh I want an electric boat but know nothing" customers who are likely to screw things up and then come back asking for help -- and then go whining all over the Internet when they don't get it?

 

If Ricky can make all this work with direct kit sales to boaters then good luck to him; if it was me -- speaking as an engineer who's been faced with exactly this kind of issue for many years -- then there isn't a bargepole long enough for me not to touch it with... 😉

Edited September 2, 2021 by IanD

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, IanD said:

Maybe, but I'll believe it when I see it 🙂

 

Sourcing and checking the components and providing support to newbie installers will consume a lot of time and effort, and unless there's a big markup (pushing the price up) it won't be worth it, spending the same amount of time and effort on new boats is better business. It might work if they supply the kit to installers who understand it and then do the installation, but they will then add their own markup which will push the price up more. If you just sell the kits direct to private individuals then you have a major hassle with things like warranty claims from people who do it wrong, which going by posts and blogs I've read is likely to be a lot of people.

 

Trust me, I'm well familiar with this kind of issue, we often get asked if we can supply individual components rather than finished products, and the answer is almost always no -- the only exception is to go via resellers or direct to bigger customers who are capable of doing their own support. What kills this is margin stacking by everyone in the chain, and also the support time/effort required, which should definitely not be underestimated for this kind of kit.

 

You only have to look on the Victron community forums at the pleas for help by people who've bought gear at the lowest possible price (without any support from the retailer), throw it together themselves, and find problems; the answer is always "Victron don't support individual end customers directly, please consult your supplier" -- which is fine if they've done all the training and know what they're doing and support the product, but suppliers who've done this understandably charge higher prices to cover their costs.

 

Selling the kit directly at low cost to people who understand it (like you and Nick) might work, but the problem is how to distinguish you few from the other 95% of "ooh I want an electric boat but know nothing" customers who are likely to screw things up and then come back asking for help -- and then whining all over the Internet when they don't get it?

 

If Ricky can make all this work with direct sales then good luck to him; if it was me -- speaking as an engineer who's been faced with exactly this kind of issue for many years -- then there isn't a bargepole long enough for me not to touch it with... 😉

 

And ^^^this^^^ is only half the story.

 

For every new boat sale achieved I'd suggest they spend several hours courting the potential customer and discussing the details in considerable depth, and out of perhaps five serious enquiries they'll get one order, so the sale effort is a substantial overhead, invisible to each individual enquirer. 

 

 With a DIY retro-fit kit I'd predict this effect will be amplified. They would spend the same several hours with each potential customer but I'd expect the conversion rate into sales to be far lower as the DIYers will be more cheapskate. The "OW MUCH???!!" effect. So in aggregate, more sales effort for fewer and lower sale values.

 

So why would they bother with retro-fit kits when they are better off concentrating their time on new boat sales?

[peterboat]

I read this morning that the geothermal company that is working in Cornwall has struck lithium! They think that 4000 tons per year will be extracted cleanly, all good news 

18 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And ^^^this^^^ is only half the story.

 

For every new boat sale achieved I'd suggest they spend several hours courting the potential customer and discussing the details in considerable depth, and out of perhaps five serious enquiries they'll get one order, so the sale effort is a substantial overhead, invisible to each individual enquirer. 

 

 With a DIY retro-fit kit I'd predict this effect will be amplified. They would spend the same several hours with each potential customer but I'd expect the conversion rate into sales to be far lower as the DIYers will be more cheapskate. The "OW MUCH???!!" effect. So in aggregate, more sales effort for fewer and lower sale values.

 

So why would they bother with retro-fit kits when they are better off concentrating their time on new boat sales?

Because the owner of the company says he is going to do it? As an aside Finesse have no orders for diesel boats the order book is electric only and full as Ian knows 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

Prob with small turbo engines is the near constant revs needed to keep in economical zone which involves multiple gears (8 speed or more) 

That and nearly all the companies are getting used for cheating on emissions 🤣

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I read this morning that the geothermal company that is working in Cornwall has struck lithium! They think that 4000 tons per year will be extracted cleanly, all good news 

Because the owner of the company says he is going to do it? As an aside Finesse have no orders for diesel boats the order book is electric only and full as Ian knows 

 

You miss my point. When they have a full order book for whole boats, why mess about trying to sell retro-conversion electric kits for £30k when for the same effort you can sell £200k new boats? 

[IanD]

21 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Because the owner of the company says he is going to do it? As an aside Finesse have no orders for diesel boats the order book is electric only and full as Ian knows 

So when he's talking to you -- someone of strong opinions who is frankly evangelical about electric boats, and keen to see everybody switch to them -- he says he's considering supplying kits, as I'm sure he is.

 

When he really looks into what's involved to supply and support them, the time and effort involved, and the profit -- because Finesse is a business, not a charity -- I'd be very surprised if he finds it makes sense, compared to building/selling new boats.

 

There's a hidden issue too, which is that if he comes up with a drive kit which is better and cheaper than anything else on the market -- which having talked to him at length, I'm sure he could do -- he can't legally refuse (competition laws) to sell it to other boatbuilders, who can then use it to sell boats with high-quality drive systems which compete with Finesse. Selling something for £30k which helps your competitors take £200k boat sales away from you is commercial suicide...

 

But as I said, good luck to him if he can make it work 😉

Edited September 2, 2021 by IanD

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I read this morning that the geothermal company that is working in Cornwall has struck lithium! They think that 4000 tons per year will be extracted cleanly, all good news 

 

We are there at the mo. Nothing about this on the local news which I would have expected.

Oh hang on.

 

https://www.cityam.com/record-levels-of-lithium-found-in-cornish-waters-as-mining-boom-gathers-steam/

 

Three weeks ago.

[Neil2]

I'm surprised Finesse have come to the conclusion about hybrid boats, ie that the future of them is in retro fitting.  The website states there are "too many drawbacks" in a new boat installation, without explaining what those drawbacks are.

 

Let's face it, "all electric" narrowboats are a fantasy.  The notion that CRT or anyone else is going to install the infrastructure required to make electric boats a practical alternative is wishful thinking in the extreme.

 

That leaves us with diesel-electric, a generator to keep a large battery bank going, but the motor driving the prop is electric. 

 

But, if you have to have a diesel engine on the boat to generate electricity, why not make it available to drive the prop as well?  In other words, a hybrid boat.  

 

I'm genuinely keen to understand the issues involved here.  Telling me that all orders for new boats are specifying electric means nothing - the narrowboat market at the moment is swamped with gullible folk who are not thinking straight and doing their own research.

 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

We are there at the mo. Nothing about this on the local news which I would have expected.

Oh hang on.

 

https://www.cityam.com/record-levels-of-lithium-found-in-cornish-waters-as-mining-boom-gathers-steam/

 

Three weeks ago.

Google geothermal ltd it was announced today on google but of course its dated 11 aug! which wasnt on the original blurb ☹️

Edited September 2, 2021 by peterboat

[peterboat]

Just now, peterboat said:

Google geothermal ltd it was announced today

 

5 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I'm surprised Finesse have come to the conclusion about hybrid boats, ie that the future of them is in retro fitting.  The website states there are "too many drawbacks" in a new boat installation, without explaining what those drawbacks are.

 

Let's face it, "all electric" narrowboats are a fantasy.  The notion that CRT or anyone else is going to install the infrastructure required to make electric boats a practical alternative is wishful thinking in the extreme.

 

That leaves us with diesel-electric, a generator to keep a large battery bank going, but the motor driving the prop is electric. 

 

But, if you have to have a diesel engine on the boat to generate electricity, why not make it available to drive the prop as well?  In other words, a hybrid boat.  

 

I'm genuinely keen to understand the issues involved here.  Telling me that all orders for new boats are specifying electric means nothing - the narrowboat market at the moment is swamped with gullible folk who are not thinking straight and doing their own research.

 

I hour genny running gives you 5 hours cruising plus hot water and a gas free boat as you can cook with electric also solar can on many days gives you free cruising. plus 25% discount on license and what happens when city centers charge for pollution will they allow diesel boats free access or will they charge them a daily rate? nobody really knows what is going to happen next

[IanD]

53 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I'm surprised Finesse have come to the conclusion about hybrid boats, ie that the future of them is in retro fitting.  The website states there are "too many drawbacks" in a new boat installation, without explaining what those drawbacks are.

 

Let's face it, "all electric" narrowboats are a fantasy.  The notion that CRT or anyone else is going to install the infrastructure required to make electric boats a practical alternative is wishful thinking in the extreme.

 

That leaves us with diesel-electric, a generator to keep a large battery bank going, but the motor driving the prop is electric. 

 

But, if you have to have a diesel engine on the boat to generate electricity, why not make it available to drive the prop as well?  In other words, a hybrid boat.  

 

I'm genuinely keen to understand the issues involved here.  Telling me that all orders for new boats are specifying electric means nothing - the narrowboat market at the moment is swamped with gullible folk who are not thinking straight and doing their own research.

 

What Finesse -- and many others -- call electric boats are really series hybrids, with some power coming from solar and some from an onboard diesel generator. The difference to diesel-electric is that engine running hours are far shorter, typically an hour per day when cruising, with the batteries acting as an energy buffer/store. Parallel hybrids like the earlier ones from hybridmarine are being superseded by series ones for various reasons, one being that a direct drive PMAC motor with a cocooned diesel generator in the bows is even quieter for the steerer (and others at the stern) than a typical diesel parallel hybrid with high-speed belt-drive motor under your feet.

 

If charging points emerge in the future then they'll make more sense, this is going to be a long time coming but it's no more wishful thinking than the 500k charging points needed for BEV.

 

The only person saying that Finesse think the future is retrofitting is Peter, that's certainly not what Ricky said last time I spoke to him -- he said they were looking at it, I think it won't make commercial sense for them (or boaters) compared to building new boats but I could be wrong.

 

The majority of new boats being built are still diesel, not many people (and no hire companies so far) are willing to pay the premium for "silent cruising". But a lot of those who are and have investigated all the issues in depth -- a couple of years in my case, and I'm an engineer who understands all this -- have decided it's worth it for them, and that Finesse have the best solution on the market today if you can afford it.

 

Which is why all their orders are electric with everything developed in-house, unlike most boatbuilders -- I think Ortomarine are about 50:50 with assorted bought-in systems, most others have done a few (e.g. Braidbar) or no electric/hybrid boats.

Edited September 2, 2021 by IanD

[nicknorman]

From Finesse’s website blog: “The market for the hybrid we believe is retrofit, …”

[IanD]

18 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

From Finesse’s website blog: “The market for the hybrid we believe is retrofit, …”

Hybrid– Generally a motor connected to the same propeller shaft as the engine. The market for the hybrid we believe is retrofit, and for people who want a small amount of silent cruising. We feel it has too many drawbacks to be a serious option on a new boat.

 

In other words, a parallel hybrid added onto an existing diesel installation, just like hybridmarine do. Cheaper and easier to add on than a series hybrid, but with several disadvantages.

 

Their favoured system -- mentioned further up the blog -- for new narrowboats is a series hybrid, which they call diesel electric -- but it's not in the classical usage (e.g. rail, ship) of the term, which just uses a generator and motor as a transmission between the diesel engine (always running) and wheels/propeller. Some others refer to these as electric boats, but unless they rely entirely on solar and (in future) charging stations and don't have a generator on board (which all the narrowboats do), they're series hybrids not electric boats.

 

The website blog is also very rarely updated (the section you referred to is almost a year old), newer stuff tends to appear on their Facebook page -- yes I know...

 

https://www.facebook.com/FinesseBoats

Edited September 2, 2021 by IanD

[nicknorman]

50 minutes ago, IanD said:

Hybrid– Generally a motor connected to the same propeller shaft as the engine. The market for the hybrid we believe is retrofit, and for people who want a small amount of silent cruising. We feel it has too many drawbacks to be a serious option on a new boat.

 

In other words, a parallel hybrid added onto an existing diesel installation, just like hybridmarine do. Cheaper and easier to add on than a series hybrid, but with several disadvantages.

 

Their favoured system -- mentioned further up the blog -- for new narrowboats is a series hybrid, which they call diesel electric -- but it's not in the classical usage (e.g. rail, ship) of the term, which just uses a generator and motor as a transmission between the diesel engine (always running) and wheels/propeller. Some others refer to these as electric boats, but unless they rely entirely on solar and (in future) charging stations and don't have a generator on board (which all the narrowboats do), they're series hybrids not electric boats.

 

The website blog is also very rarely updated (the section you referred to is almost a year old), newer stuff tends to appear on their Facebook page -- yes I know...

 

https://www.facebook.com/FinesseBoats

Yes I know, I am just pointing out that the comment further up the page is valid. Even though you have to understand the difference between hybrid and diesel electric to fully get the meaning!

[IanD]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I know, I am just pointing out that the comment further up the page is valid. Even though you have to understand the difference between hybrid and diesel electric to fully get the meaning!

I really wish people would use [1. electric 2. diesel-electric 3. parallel hybrid 4. series hybrid] correctly, because there's an awful lot of misunderstanding going on, and Finesse aren't helping here... 😉

 

1. Electric -- no fossil fuels, just batteries + electric motor + some means of recharging (solar, plug-in). Impractical for cruising narrowboats until charging stations are everywhere.

2. Diesel-electric -- diesel engine drives generator, motor drives wheels/propellor, no big battery. Electric transmission like train/ship, diesel has to run all the time. Engine can be remote.

3. Parallel hybrid -- diesel engine and motor/generator both coupled directly to prop + battery storage. Diesel and/or motor can drive prop, can run on electric motor only from batteries. Engine has to be in stern.

4. Series hybrid -- diesel generator (+ other sources) charges batteries, electric motor drives prop. What keeps getting referred to as "electric boating" but isn't really yet (see #1). Generator can be remote.

 

The meaning of all these terms is clear and well-known in automotive/marine(ship)/rail worlds, but for some reason the narrowboat world doesn't seem to be able to use them properly 😞

 

A parallel hybrid has some advantages if it's done properly (small diesel, big flywheel motor/generator) so the diesel is reasonably heavily loaded -- but then the problem is that at normal cruising speed the diesel is only running at about half the maximum rpm. Adding a belt-drive ~9kW motor/7kW generator onto a Beta 43 (what hybridmarine does) makes this worse, the diesel is too big and running too slow and the motor/generator is too small to soak up the "spare" power of the diesel -- and if lead-acid cells are used (hybridmarine again) the diesel has to run for hours to equalise/desulphate them, as well as losing maybe 30% of the energy in charge/discharge losses.

 

Seen as "old hybrid technology" nowadays, most suppliers/builders are moving towards series hybrids.

 

A series hybrid allows a generator to be used only when needed, and this always runs at full power when it's on to give maximum efficiency. System losses are small *if* lithium batteries are used, no equalisition needed. One downside is that all the power has to come from the electric motor and motors/controllers that can sustain this (typically 15kW) are expensive, and a lot of suppliers penny-pinch here. Generator is low noise anyway and can be placed anywhere e.g. in bow away from steerer, giving a "silent stern". The most expensive system but the one with the biggest advantages, especially noise and low generator running hours, service intervals (every 250 hours running?) will probably be a year or more even for a boat which cruises full-time.

 

Seen as the newest sexiest technology nowadays, but a lot of installations fail to fully realise all the advantages due to corner-cutting to try and keep costs down, because it looks *really* expensive compared to a diesel. But even done properly, the total cost of the drive/electrical system (including solar and house-level 230Vac power) is still only about 20% of the total cost of a new-build narrowboat, which doesn't seem so bad when you think about it...

Edited September 2, 2021 by IanD

[nicknorman]

One thing which might concern is that in order for the series hybrid to be maximally efficient, the genny needs to run at full load. A Beta 43 running at normal canal rpm (1300) is pretty relaxing and easy to make fairly quiet and vibration-free. A genny running flat out much less so, I suspect. And how will its life be affected by running under heavy load all the time?

 

And if you go for a bow genny, how do you get the power back to the batteries which presumably are at the rear 50-odd feet away? Presumably at mains ac voltage, and then you need some chunky charging gizmos to convert it to lower voltage dc and keep the batteries happy. Apart from the cost, in that lot there is a fair amount of inefficiency and a larger number of failure points than there would be with straight diesel drive.

[Neil2]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

I really wish people would use [1. electric 2. diesel-electric 3. parallel hybrid 4. series hybrid] correctly, because there's an awful lot of misunderstanding going on, and Finesse aren't helping here... 😉

 

1. Electric -- no fossil fuels, just batteries + electric motor + some means of recharging (solar, plug-in). Impractical for cruising narrowboats until charging stations are everywhere.

2. Diesel-electric -- diesel engine drives generator, motor drives wheels/propellor, no big battery. Electric transmission like train/ship, diesel has to run all the time. Engine can be remote.

3. Parallel hybrid -- diesel engine and motor/generator both coupled directly to prop + battery storage. Diesel and/or motor can drive prop, can run on electric motor only from batteries. Engine has to be in stern.

4. Series hybrid -- diesel generator (+ other sources) charges batteries, electric motor drives prop. What keeps getting referred to as "electric boating" but isn't really yet (see #1). Generator can be remote.

 

The meaning of all these terms is clear and well-known in automotive/marine(ship)/rail worlds, but for some reason the narrowboat world doesn't seem to be able to use them properly 😞

 

A parallel hybrid has some advantages if it's done properly (small diesel, big flywheel motor/generator) so the diesel is reasonably heavily loaded -- but then the problem is that at normal cruising speed the diesel is only running at about half the maximum rpm. Adding a belt-drive ~9kW motor/7kW generator onto a Beta 43 (what hybridmarine does) makes this worse, the diesel is too big and running too slow and the motor/generator is too small to soak up the "spare" power of the diesel -- and if lead-acid cells are used (hybridmarine again) the diesel has to run for hours to equalise/desulphate them, as well as losing maybe 30% of the energy in charge/discharge losses.

 

Seen as "old technology" nowadays, most suppliers are moving towards series hybrids.

 

A series hybrid allows a generator to be used only when needed, and this always runs at full power when it's on to give maximum efficiency. System losses are small *if* lithium batteries are used, no equalisiation needed. One downside is that all the power has to come from the electric motor and motors/controllers that can sustain this (typically 15kW) are expensive, and a lot of suppliers penny-pinch here. Generator is low noise anyway and can be placed anywhere e.g. in bow away from steerer, giving a "silent stern". The most expensive system but the one with the biggest advantages, especially noise and low generator running hours, service intervals (every 250 hours running?) will probably be a year or more even for a boat which cruises full-time.

 

Seen as the newest sexiest technology nowadays, but a lot of installations fail to realise all the advantages due to corner-cutting to try and keep costs down.

 

Thanks @IanD that is very helpful.  I hope though that when you refer to "the narrowboat world" you mean the people that are trying to sell these things, not guys like me who are admittedly ignorant but trying to understand the issues.

 

It would be helpful if someone could put actual figures on the different options being discussed.  Looking at the HybridMarine site they admit a significant reason why they went down the "parallel" route is that the electric motor is relatively small and sized for low speed cruising, hence it's (a lot?) cheaper.  It does sound to me as though the "serial" hybrid is a better system, but the motor has to do all the work - and that might for example include pushing the tide on the river Ribble. If it is up to that it's going to be really expensive, right?

 

In my native parlance you can't get owt for nowt but it doesn't stop people trying.  So it wouldn't/doesn't surprise me if the folk selling these systems pare down the cost somehow so they don't scare buyers away.     

[IanD]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

One thing which might concern is that in order for the series hybrid to be maximally efficient, the genny needs to run at full load. A Beta 43 running at normal canal rpm (1300) is pretty relaxing and easy to make fairly quiet and vibration-free. A genny running flat out much less so, I suspect. And how will its life be affected by running under heavy load all the time?

 

And if you go for a bow genny, how do you get the power back to the batteries which presumably are at the rear 50-odd feet away? Presumably at mains ac voltage, and then you need some chunky charging gizmos to convert it to lower voltage dc and keep the batteries happy. Apart from the cost, in that lot there is a fair amount of inefficiency and a larger number of failure points than there would be with straight diesel drive.

Most people are using cocooned 1500rpm generators, 3000rpm ones are too noisy and wear out too soon. They actually like being at full load or close to it, efficiency is better and they're rated for continuous use at this.

 

Generators are usually 230V, they're cables back to the stern to go into one of the AC inputs of an inverter/charger like a Victron Quattro -- which is there anyway to provide 230Vac to the boat from the batteries. Cabling is no worse than your usual cooker spur at home (40A 6mm2). Efficiency of the whole low is surprisingly high even allowing for conversion losses, so long as you use lithium batteries -- the key point is fuel consumption. The figures I worked out earlier (including all losses and inefficiencies) gave about 40% lower fuel consumption than a diesel for a typical 8h cruising day (4h cruising, 2h passing moored boats, 2h in locks) if all power came from the generator, 70% lower if half the power comes from solar (e.g. in summer, cruising every other day), and 100% if all power comes from solar (e.g. in summer, cruising a couple of days a week).

 

Yes there are multiple points of failure, just as in a diesel boat -- in a diesel you can't go anywhere if your engine fails, and you have no mains onboard if your inverter fails. In a series hybrid you can't go anywhere if your motor/controller fails, if the inverter fails then you still have mains from the generator, if the generator fails you can still charge the batteries from solar. I'm not sure one is any worse than the other...

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

Thanks @IanD that is very helpful.  I hope though that when you refer to "the narrowboat world" you mean the people that are trying to sell these things, not guys like me who are admittedly ignorant but trying to understand the issues.

 

It would be helpful if someone could put actual figures on the different options being discussed.  Looking at the HybridMarine site they admit a significant reason why they went down the "parallel" route is that the electric motor is relatively small and sized for low speed cruising, hence it's (a lot?) cheaper.  It does sound to me as though the "serial" hybrid is a better system, but the motor has to do all the work - and that might for example include pushing the tide on the river Ribble. If it is up to that it's going to be really expensive, right?

 

In my native parlance you can't get owt for nowt but it doesn't stop people trying.  So it wouldn't/doesn't surprise me if the folk selling these systems pare down the cost somehow so they don't scare buyers away.     

15kW/20bhp is plenty for the Ribble link according to many who have travelled on it, and this is what the best series narrowboat hybrids can provide for several hours continuously. Many of the cheaper ones have a similar headline power rating (10kW, 12kW, 15kW...) but this can't be sustained for more than ten minutes or so, though this is very well hidden or not even mentioned, you have to figure out the component suppliers and go and dig deep into their specs.

 

I'd have to go back and look at the numbers, from memory the hybridmarine parallel hybrid system (with 48V/800Ah of lead-acid traction cells) and the Waterworld series hybrid (15kW motor with 48V/1000Ah of lead-carbon cells and 7kVa generator) were both about £30k including all the electrics. A conventional diesel (Beta 43) with big alternators plus some big batteries and inverter is a lot less than this, depending on your electrics/battery choices probably £10k-£15k -- not many people put the battery/inverter sizes in that the hybrids use. I don't have an exact figure for Finesse but my guess is maybe £35k-£40k (15kW motor with 48V/700Ah lithium cells and 9kVA generator) -- the lithium batteries alone probably add about £5k compared to lead-carbon or lead-acid.

Edited September 2, 2021 by IanD

[phantom_iv]

19 minutes ago, IanD said:

Yes there are multiple points of failure, just as in a diesel boat -- in a diesel you can't go anywhere if your engine fails, and you have no mains onboard if your inverter fails. In a series hybrid you can't go anywhere if your motor/controller fails, if the inverter fails then you still have mains from the generator, if the generator fails you can still charge the batteries from solar. I'm not sure one is any worse than the other...

That’s a good point - and interesting in the context of series/parallel hybrids.

A parallel hybrid can still cruise if either the engine/gearbox or motor/controller fail (although you’d need to find an alternate power source in case of an engine failure, but cheap suitcase generator would do in an emergency), where as a diesel boat or series hybrid is a bit stuck if you lose either of these.

 

That said, 5-10 years down the line can you guarantee you’ll be able to get a new motor/engine that’s compatible with your existing parallel hybrid setup in case of failure? Would think it’ll probably be easier to plug&play new motors etc into a series setup if need be, and probably more ‘future proofed’ if you want to go fully electric in future

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

That’s a good point - and interesting in the context of series/parallel hybrids.

A parallel hybrid can still cruise if either the engine/gearbox or motor/controller fail (although you’d need to find an alternate power source in case of an engine failure, but cheap suitcase generator would do in an emergency), where as a diesel boat or series hybrid is a bit stuck if you lose either of these.

 

That said, 5-10 years down the line can you guarantee you’ll be able to get a new motor/engine that’s compatible with your existing parallel hybrid setup in case of failure? Would think it’ll probably be easier to plug&play new motors etc into a series setup if need be, and probably more ‘future proofed’ if you want to go fully electric in future

It all depends what you think the "worst-case" problem is -- not being able to move is bad but you can usually sit there until a repair guy arrives. Losing mains when it powers things like a fridge/freezer and all the other electrical stuff on the boat -- especially if cooking is electric -- would be seen as a bigger problem by many people. From that point of view a series hybrid has two sources of AC power -- yes you could have a suitcase generator but you have to find somewhere to store it and the petrol.

 

For sure replacing bits in the future might be easier with a series hybrid because they're all independent, you can swap the generator or PMAC motor or controller or inverter or batteries for an equivalent, 230Vac and 48V DC are both standards.

[PeterF]

Not sure if it has been mentioned above. The August edition of Waterways World had an article where a narrowboat had the Isuzu 42 removed to be replaced by a series hybrid. The skin tank was reused for a Fischer Panda 8kVA genset which used a new inverter/charger to charge a 48V 630Ah lead carbon battery bank which powered a BellMarine 15kW motor which needed a new skin tank. The cost of the retrofit was listed as £50,000. The article quoted a 60% reduction in diesel consumption. The work was done professionally so that is why it is much higher than the figures given earlier.

[StephenA]

3 minutes ago, PeterF said:

The cost of the retrofit was listed as £50,000. The article quoted a 60% reduction in diesel consumption. The work was done professionally so that is why it is much higher than the figures given earlier.

 

Which pretty much puts it out of the reach of a large number of boaters, actually probably the majority of those who will have to replace existing ICE systems in time. Admittedly costs will come down but they'd have to fall a long long way if there isn't going to a huge reduction in boat numbers as they are lifted out and cut up for scrap.

 

And of course it doesn't solve the zero emissions rules that are going to be enforced.

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by StephenA