Mooring needed. Cheshire East preferred. And ideally within 30 minutes of Stoke...

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Be aware that CCing a car is unlikely to go down well with insurers, particularly if it is a more expensive model. They may also not be too happy accepting a marina address (assuming the marina will allow you to declare it as your home address).

I'd have thought that marinas -- which often have secure locked/gated parking for residents -- would be a lower risk for insurers than parking your car on your driveway, where many are stolen from?

 

It's not always obvious the way insurers think/work/price -- how many people say their car is normally parked in a locked garage not on their drive, thinking it'll mean a cheaper premium because it's more secure? Actually it usually costs more because the lower risk of theft is outweighed by the number of people who either scrape their car reversing into the garage or bang their door on the wall...

[David Mack]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'd have thought that marinas -- which often have secure locked/gated parking for residents -- would be a lower risk for insurers than parking your car on your driveway, where many are stolen from?

 

It's not always obvious the way insurers think/work/price -- how many people say their car is normally parked in a locked garage not on their drive, thinking it'll mean a cheaper premium because it's more secure? Actually it usually costs more because the lower risk of theft is outweighed by the number of people who either scrape their car reversing into the garage or bang their door on the wall...

Car insurance is a commodity, and particularly since the advent of comparison sites, is sold largely on the basis of price, with the risks assessed for the average customer - one who lives in bricks and mortar. As soon as you deviate from that you get away from the standard risk model, and that represents an unknown increased risk to insurers, who price accordingly, or decline the business. Most insurance companies have too few customers based in marinas to have collected any meaningful claim data, and for every marina with a gated entrance locked out of hours, CCTV and lighting etc. there is probably another with no security at all, and an insurance bod in an office miles away can't tell which is which.

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Car insurance is a commodity, and particularly since the advent of comparison sites, is sold largely on the basis of price, with the risks assessed for the average customer - one who lives in bricks and mortar. As soon as you deviate from that you get away from the standard risk model, and that represents an unknown increased risk to insurers, who price accordingly, or decline the business. Most insurance companies have too few customers based in marinas to have collected any meaningful claim data, and for every marina with a gated entrance locked out of hours, CCTV and lighting etc. there is probably another with no security at all, and an insurance bod in an office miles away can't tell which is which.

You may well be correct. Does anyone have any actual quotes?

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Possibly the Utopia is a farm mooring, on line, with electricity and water. A car park, waste collection, in a good phone reception area.

 

Rare, like unicorn droppings but we can all wish.

That's more or less what we had at the farm at Croughton, when I moved there yonks ago. There was water,  Elsan disposal, toilets, a basin with power at farm prices (you could weld all day for about 20p), parking by the boat and a Sunday farmer's market. Was just about perfect, plenty of liveaboards so security was good and Eric Watson on one mooring so a first rate engineer always on hand.

They don't make 'em like that any more.

[Mike Todd]

6 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

Most of us on here know very well that it isn't any cheaper living on a boat than in a house, certainly not in the long term, but the killer of course these days is the capital cost.  In some parts of the country the discrepancy between buying a decent boat and a tiny house/flat is massive, you can't blame folk for opting to live on water.

 

But the problem is hardly anyone points out the significant drawbacks and the likes of Tim and Pru etc display all the virtues of life on the waterways with hardly a mention of the downsides.  Those who have managed to make a success of living full time on the canals are usually strong advocates whilst you rarely hear from those who have tried and failed, though I have met many of them personally.  

 

I have a young friend who is mid 20's with really good career prospects but still renting and he asked me what I thought about buying a boat to live on.  At the end of the conversation he decided to stay put, save like mad and wait for the inevitable housing market crash which I suspect is not far away.

 

 

Remember that you can get a mortgage (actually a subsidised one if you take into accounts the tax breaks) for a house but almost never for a boat. This means that the amount you have to have in cash is not as different as is sometimes suggested. That is, you have to compare the full cost of buying the boat with the typical deposit required for a house. Also, need to factor in that a boat may well depreciate (although in recent years they have almost bucked the history) whilst - usually - house prices climb inexorably. (A 'house price crash' in media headlines usually refers to a sudden drop in the rate of increase!)

 

One factor that I have no0t seen mentioned is that fulltime living on a boat, especially CCing, may well be quiet and peaceful but it is even more difficult to build a good network of 'real' friends - the society to link into is relatively tiny. You may well have in mind the option of finding a mate! Even in the days of working boats, this was fraught with problems, or so the records tend to show. Of course, you may well be like me and already have one or, again like me, be ancient and past that sort of shenanigans . . . 

[Neil2]

10 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Remember that you can get a mortgage (actually a subsidised one if you take into accounts the tax breaks) for a house but almost never for a boat. This means that the amount you have to have in cash is not as different as is sometimes suggested. That is, you have to compare the full cost of buying the boat with the typical deposit required for a house. Also, need to factor in that a boat may well depreciate (although in recent years they have almost bucked the history) whilst - usually - house prices climb inexorably. (A 'house price crash' in media headlines usually refers to a sudden drop in the rate of increase!)

 

One factor that I have no0t seen mentioned is that fulltime living on a boat, especially CCing, may well be quiet and peaceful but it is even more difficult to build a good network of 'real' friends - the society to link into is relatively tiny. You may well have in mind the option of finding a mate! Even in the days of working boats, this was fraught with problems, or so the records tend to show. Of course, you may well be like me and already have one or, again like me, be ancient and past that sort of shenanigans . . . 

 

What are the "tax breaks" of a mortgage these days?

[Cheshire cat]

I'm surprised Aston has got a space. It had a waiting list a couple of weeks ago. It's got quite a few boats with owners who live permanently on board. 

I suppose I'd better pay my mooring fees. 🙄

[northern]

In terms of car insurance, I made enquiries months ago as it's not something I'd taken any risk with, the consequences are too great.  I know my current insurer will only allow me to reside at the address to which the policy is registered.  They accept and allow the car to be parked at another address, so long as you declare it, but still insist you must live at the address the policy is registered to.  I planned to use BoatMail or similar and with me not living at this address the policy could not be accepted.  They advised if I were to do this then the policy would be cancelled.  And getting insurance if you've had a policy cancelled would be a nightmare.

 

Instead and without a lot of effort I found two major insurers who were able to help in different ways.  One was fine with the BoatMail address and me not residing there, and declaring the car kept at a marina.  The other said I'd have to register the policy to the marina's address but would set up a paperless policy so the marina would be none the wiser.  In both cases I made it clear I resided on a boat and not in bricks and mortar.

 

I'm in my late 30s now and I've done the whole 'how much better/worse' will I be financially on a boat than in bricks and mortar.  There are too many variables and unknowns to ever know.  For instance, you never know how things will look and where you'll be at in the property price merry go round in 5, 10, 20 years etc.  Property could be at an all time high or low when you come to exit.  And that matters, to me at least, as you might want to realise some of the capital.  I suspect there's many people around my age with large mortgages for the next 20+ years, speculating just how much it might be worth in years to come.  On paper it may well be worth more.  A lot more.  But what's the point if it's just a paper, illiquid number and you can't realise the benefit?

 

The other thing that people don't take into account is the cost of interest on the mortgage.  You hear lots of "we made £X" in X years as though it's pure profit when in reality is it's not.

 

The real upside to property and the potential to make money is leveraging.  I could secure a sizeable mortgage if I wanted to against an expensive property.  Nobody's going to lend me such a sum to invest in share funds though.

 

I've not got a downer on home ownership or mortgages.  Far from it.  I'm fortunate enough to owe nothing to anyone, I've no debt, and beyond food and utilities, no other outgoings other than rent and council tax.  I'm not a fan of being tied it monthly subscriptions like gyms etc so I avoid them.  I'm also fortunate enough to have a decent enough job and can continue investing a few thousand a month into stocks and shares accumulation funds.  They're giving better returns than the housing market albeit I've only got a modest amount invested at the moment.  But it should grow nicely over the years if I continue to invest as now.

 

I'm sure that I'll be slightly better off living aboard and at least have money I can access in the future rather than having it tied up in a house.  That's the plan at least.

 

The overriding factor is that for all I know I might be dead 10 years from now.  Or sooner.  So I could wait around and delay the decision, wait until I'm 65 but never actually make it.  I'm not one of those 'you only live once' tits that use this as justification to live recklessly.

 

In terms of finding a partner, maintaining friendships and constant cruising being tough for all of these, I can only imagine it is.  I'm single and whatever happens, happens.  I'm very used to my own company though and live alone having done so for years now.  I do like company but maybe only up until a point.

 

Long term, unless things change in the future and I'm not daft enough to think things won't, then I don't aspire to anything in the future other than a dog, a nice enough boat and some savings to fall back on from years of saving.

 

[northern]

40 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

I'm surprised Aston has got a space. It had a waiting list a couple of weeks ago. It's got quite a few boats with owners who live permanently on board. 

I suppose I'd better pay my mooring fees. 🙄

 

The lady I spoke with wasn't certain and I'm due a call back during the week.  Though she did say I've a better chance if I only want something short-term.  Beggars can't be choosers so maybe I'll have to do that.

[Neil2]

It sounds to me as though you have given this a lot of careful thought, so good luck!   Unlike many liveaboards/potential liveaboards you do seem to have a plan B, or at least you are planning for an uncertain future.  I'm staggered at the number of liveaboards I meet who have no backup/safety net at all, but all you need is a bad accident or a serious illness to make life on a boat utterly miserable.

 

As regards Aston, they always used to hold back a certain number of berths for winter stayers, and it sounds as though they still do, but doubtless they are now subject to the pressure caused by so many folk heading for the waterways and, word getting around that it's a well run operation.   Talk to Nick, he's been running Aston for several years now and I'm sure he'll help if it's at all possible.

[northern]

Thank you.  Fingers crossed for a decent survey in less than 2 weeks.  I'll update once done and a mooring's sorted.

[Tony1]

3 hours ago, northern said:

 

 

In terms of finding a partner, maintaining friendships and constant cruising being tough for all of these, I can only imagine it is.  I'm single and whatever happens, happens.  I'm very used to my own company though and live alone having done so for years now.  I do like company but maybe only up until a point.

 

Long term, unless things change in the future and I'm not daft enough to think things won't, then I don't aspire to anything in the future other than a dog, a nice enough boat and some savings to fall back on from years of saving.

 

 

That is an interesting point about social and romantic relationships whilst living aboard, and I think you have to be realistic (and it sounds as if you are, to be fair). 

 

My impression from the past year is that there are significantly more single men than women living on the waterways, so the bare statistics are probably a bit grim if you are very keen on that sort of thing. 

It must also be said that the single women that there are- as far as I can tell- seem to be very singular indeed. The ones I've met have been mostly individualistic, interesting, and very distinctive people- and even better, quite often highly amusing. 

However, my other impression is that, by and large, they are not desperately keen to strike up romantic relationships, but rather enjoy their independence and freedom of choice, and of movement. 

 

But all of that said, I must say the majority of interactions I've had have been very positive. In a marina you will make some friends, so there is that. Even CCing you can make friends.

But it is noteworthy that the only guy I stayed friends with for more than a few weeks was a boater I met near Nantwich, when we were both stuck there during the winter lockdown. 

Normally when CCing, there is definitely a feeling of transience about meeting new people, however nice they seem.

But it also depends where you moor. I'm not far from Ellesmere, and there seems to be a thriving little community of boaters in the general area.

If you moor up in a line of boats, you're bound to get talking to the folks next door at some point- in fact I feel I have more meaningful and interesting interactions with strangers than I did in my last few years of living in a house. 

 

I most often moor in quieter spots to be honest, with no other boats in sight- but even then when someone moors ten yards away, after the initial reaction of annoyance, nine times out of ten you end up having an interesting conversation about something or other. 

Of course I would say that, but on reflection I have no strong evidence that the other parties share my enthusiasm. 

And since almost all of them depart the next morning, I am beginning to wonder if showing off my collection of oversized Rambo knives really is the best opening conversational gambit. 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Tony1

[MtB]

11 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

What are the "tax breaks" of a mortgage these days?

 

I too was wondering this. I can't think of any! 

[MtB]

9 hours ago, northern said:

The other thing that people don't take into account is the cost of interest on the mortgage.  You hear lots of "we made £X" in X years as though it's pure profit when in reality is it's not

 

I can see you've thought things out very thoroughly but here, I feel there is a flaw in your logic here. 

 

The people you mention are obtaining accommodation in return for the mortgage interest they are paying, and this is usually less than the 'imputed rent' on the same property. Put another way, they could live in the same accommodation without paying mortgage interest by renting it instead. That however, would cost more than the mortgage interest so when they say ""we made £X" in X years" on the basis of selling minus buying price, they are actually slightly understating the profit they made. 

 

Set against this though, they should also account for the 'opportunity cost' of their deposit which otherwise could have been invested elsewhere, and inflation.  

[northern]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

I can see you've thought things out very thoroughly but here, I feel there is a flaw in your logic here. 

 

The people you mention are obtaining accommodation in return for the mortgage interest they are paying, and this is usually less than the 'imputed rent' on the same property. Put another way, they could live in the same accommodation without paying mortgage interest by renting it instead. That however, would cost more than the mortgage interest so when they say ""we made £X" in X years" on the basis of selling minus buying price, they are actually slightly understating the profit they made. 

 

Set against this though, they should also account for the 'opportunity cost' of their deposit which otherwise could have been invested elsewhere, and inflation.  

 

Definitely agree with that.  I was more comparing the boat Vs house scenario but you're right, renting Vs buying doesn't usually make sense long-term.

[Neil2]

5 minutes ago, northern said:

 

Definitely agree with that.  I was more comparing the boat Vs house scenario but you're right, renting Vs buying doesn't usually make sense long-term.

 

It depends - you are either "renting" money or renting property, and if you factor in the true costs of ownership and interest rate fluctuations there's still a very good argument for renting property.   Because we are going through a period of very low interest rates the argument is in favour of buying - at the moment.  When interest rates start to rise, as they must, followed by the inevitable housing market crash, there's going to be a mass outbreak of buyers remorse.  

 

  

[northern]

6 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

It depends - you are either "renting" money or renting property, and if you factor in the true costs of ownership and interest rate fluctuations there's still a very good argument for renting property.   Because we are going through a period of very low interest rates the argument is in favour of buying - at the moment.  When interest rates start to rise, as they must, followed by the inevitable housing market crash, there's going to be a mass outbreak of buyers remorse.  

 

  

 

That was one of the considerations when opting for the boat.   I don't think we've even seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to inflation yet.  I work in distribution and some of what I'm seeing in terms of what drives inflation is worrying.  Not to mention the cost of energy, fuel, food, wood, cars etc which all seem to be spiraling.  

 

That said, will inflation really hurt many especially in the context of housing?  Most people are on fixed rate deals for a good few years.  Same with car payments and other high cost monthlies - you tend to be tied in for a few years so immediate inflation won't matter too much.  I think it probably only hurts when you're maxed out with loans/payments/mortgages and the general cost of living increases and leaves you exposed.

 

I'm no economist though as you can tell!

[Cheshire cat]

10 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

 

As regards Aston, they always used to hold back a certain number of berths for winter stayers, and it sounds as though they still do, but doubtless they are now subject to the pressure caused by so many folk heading for the waterways and, word getting around that it's a well run operation.   Talk to Nick, he's been running Aston for several years now and I'm sure he'll help if it's at all possible.

 

I'm sure Nick will help if at all possible. He's running a business after all. In previous years there has always been quite a few empty pontoons during the summer months which have become occupied again come September first. CC'ers would come in for six months and depart again on March 1st. That pattern seems to have changed this year. When we first took our mooring at Stone we had several empty berths to choose from. I can't think of any spaces at the moment. There seems to have been an influx of boats from the Stone Chandlery / Joules brewery area recently which has provided a useful top up.

 

Anyway, no harm in asking. There are plenty of trips that can be done over a weekend if you can get a berth.

[Ange]

13 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Remember that you can get a mortgage (actually a subsidised one if you take into accounts the tax breaks) 

I've clearly missed something, please enlighten me (and others that have asked the same question). What are these tax breaks? I'd like to take advantage of them.

[Neil2]

32 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

 

I'm sure Nick will help if at all possible. He's running a business after all. In previous years there has always been quite a few empty pontoons during the summer months which have become occupied again come September first. CC'ers would come in for six months and depart again on March 1st. That pattern seems to have changed this year. When we first took our mooring at Stone we had several empty berths to choose from. I can't think of any spaces at the moment. There seems to have been an influx of boats from the Stone Chandlery / Joules brewery area recently which has provided a useful top up.

 

Anyway, no harm in asking. There are plenty of trips that can be done over a weekend if you can get a berth.

 

I noticed the chandlery in Stone had morphed into a bike shop..?  It seems odd that in the middle of a narrowboat boom a chandlery should close down or did it happen during the lockdown?  Stone still proudly claims to be a canal town set in the birthplace of the canal age yet Roger Fuller's yard seems to be inactive and now the chandlery has gone.  

[David Mack]

Stone chandlery closed a while ago. I seem to recall it was discussed on here at the time. I assume it fell victim to online ordering. Even the big boys, Midland Chandlers, have closed their original branch at Penkridge.

[Ange]

Festival park maybe 🙂 At least an acknowledgement. Politeness costs nothing.

[northern]

1 minute ago, Ange said:

Festival park maybe 🙂 At least an acknowledgement. Politeness costs nothing.

Sorry, Ange.  Missed your reply.  I wasn't being deliberately impolite.

 

I think I'd rather somewhere slightly more rural in all honesty so Stoke's probably not for me.  Thanks all the same.

[Ange]

37 minutes ago, northern said:

Sorry, Ange.  Missed your reply.  I wasn't being deliberately impolite.

 

I think I'd rather somewhere slightly more rural in all honesty so Stoke's probably not for me.  Thanks all the same.

No worries, apologies I just felt a tad ignored when I felt I offered a good option.

As I said I wish you well 

[Neil2]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Stone chandlery closed a while ago. I seem to recall it was discussed on here at the time. I assume it fell victim to online ordering. Even the big boys, Midland Chandlers, have closed their original branch at Penkridge.

 

Gosh I am out of touch I didn't know about Penkridge - and I passed by there a few weeks ago.  That "new" boatyard where Teddesley used to be seems to be doing ok though.  

 

In that case Aston isn't quite as attractive as it used to be... One of the advantages was having two decent chandleries nearby.