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Is this classic head gasket gone.


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Bearing in mind I purchased a boat last week at a fair price including the engine which was not running.

I am quite happy with the deal and now recognise that the engine needs sorting out.

The flywheel is currently seized no doubt due to overheating, I cannot move the crank nut, the starter motor is off and I cannot move the flywheel with a screwdriver.

I do not know the extent of the overheating from the  previous owner, but they broke down and got towed in, then not wanting to face a repair bill they sold it to me at what I regard as a really good price.

Today having got to my boat, i had a good look all around the block and cylinder head and there is no staining of leaks or boil out of water or oil running from where the head gasket would be.

Next i got a jug and began to operate the hand pump on the engine block,  taking about 1 ltr of fluid out before stopping to observe the mix.

The first few pumps gave a splodge of water before any oil became visible in the next few draws.

I have attached a picture of the  jug and would value your thoughts on head gasket or is there any other possible scenarios  for the water mix.

The picture was taken about 4 hours after withdrawal  so it had time to settle.

Your thoughts please.

IMG_20210816_171109.jpg

IMG_20210816_171036.jpg

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You have water in the oil, possibly with antifreeze as well which does the oil no good at all.

The obvious interface of oil and water is the cylinder head, and head gasket.

Or you are facing cracks in block or head castings or a grenaded engine which is smashed internally like a connecting rod smashed through a cylinder wall.

  • Greenie 1
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Would I not be able to see any ares of damage around the block or cylinder?

I know that a gasket can fail within the internal channels  of the block, having took the rocker cover off the valves show no signs of damage and no sludge anywhere in the rocker cover or round the valves/ tappets.

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4 minutes ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Would I not be able to see any ares of damage around the block or cylinder?

I know that a gasket can fail within the internal channels  of the block, having took the rocker cover off the valves show no signs of damage and no sludge anywhere in the rocker cover or round the valves/ tappets.

It is not usual to see any weeping of the gasket externally with modern engines, that was an old engine problem when they had solid copper head gaskets. There will be no sludge if the failure was sudden and under load, you only get mayonnaise with a slight persistent leak over a long time. 

Time to take the head off and reveal all.

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

How about a heat exchanger failure.  Mind you that much water in the oil the bearings would probably pick up anyway so still a knackered engine bigtime

Are you referring to the exhaust manifold/heat exchanger?  There is no oil in that casting. I doubt that this engine has an engine oil cooler but if it has, that would be a possibility.

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Beta marine 28, doesnt look old, do you think it would be worth taking the head off, the replace, re hone or repair  etc an engine or just pay someone to whip this one out and put a reconditioned  one in.

Reconstruction around 3k plus fitting, my guess is you could spend 1 k investigating and removing engine only to then have to buy a replacement.

Do you have any guesstimates / feelings for either option?

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If the engine is immovable you have little to lose by taking the head off and having a look.  There could be water in a cylinder causing that piston to 'Hydraulic' or other things unknown. Whatever the cause it is not a huge engine, it is quite common in small plant stuff, mowers and things and you could probably get a reasonable runner from E bay secondhand off the shelf. I wouldn't go for a recon straight away as it might a) not be very good and b) cost a lot more than a secondhand engine. After all, many of us have secondhand cars full of secondhand machinery and running on secondhand tyres.  

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13 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Are you sure its a Beta Marine 28? 

They only advertise a 25 a 30 and a 38.

Is it not a 38?

Yep, definitely a 28, year 2000 build, I believe they built them( the red ones for sea/ marine inshore use, then modified the heat exchanger unit bits for use with skin tanks on canals.

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2 hours ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Beta marine 28, doesnt look old, do you think it would be worth taking the head off, the replace, re hone or repair  etc an engine or just pay someone to whip this one out and put a reconditioned  one in.

 

With that amount of water in the sump, not only do you need to get the head off to see what's going on, I'd also want to get the sump off and get the end caps off the big ends to see what state they are in. Seized  + badly worn big ends due to water in oil = scrap engine (in this case....if it were a vintage engine it could be worth rebuilding).

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2 hours ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

The flywheel is currently seized no doubt due to overheating,

 

Assumption was the mother of many cock-ups.

 

Why do you say there is "no doubt" that overheating is the cause of seizing? To me there appears to be loads of doubt! 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Next i got a jug and began to operate the hand pump on the engine block,  taking about 1 ltr of fluid out before stopping to observe the mix.

The first few pumps gave a splodge of water before any oil became visible in the next few draws.

 

This tells us coolant (or water anyway) has got into the sump. This is unlikely to be the head gasket passing from a waterway to an oilway with the engine running as the oil pressure at say 30psi exceeds the probable coolant system pressure. I guess it is possible that once the engine stopped, a waterway-to-oilway leak would pass coolant into the oil  as the oil pressure would subside to zero but like Tracy, I'm more inclined to suspect a catastrophic structural failure. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

my guess is you could spend 1 k investigating and removing engine

 

Taking the head off will reveal a wealth of info and takes perhaps an hour. Free if you do it yourself or perhaps £75 tops for a skilled technician to do it for you. Only once you have ther head off will you be in any position to know if the engine needs removing. 

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Here's an old bit of wisdom

Never take an engine apart till you know whats wrong with it 😀  That means don't take the head off just to have a look inside.

That's a lot of water in the oil. Is the boat sort of clean and tidy inside, or has it been sunk at some time 😀.

Is this a wet liner engine (question to those who know about Beta engines) and might a liner have failed?

 

As you don't really know the history then maybe my wisdom does not apply, If you can do the head off yourself then do it?  If you are paying somebody else to investigate then maybe just get a new engine? Its odds and gambling but chances are the engine is in trouble and investigations are a waste of money.

I'm not convinced that its worth rebuilding engines unless:......

Its a special vintage engine

You plan to do it yorself

You enjoy building engines

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33 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

In reply to dmr's post above

 

I have looked at a Kubota manual and it seems it does not use liners.  They say if the bore is excessively worn, to replace the block.

In which case I would rip it out and fit a brand new Canaline engine, current proven unit, good guarantee. You can use the existing gearbox, if its OK.

These Japanese engines that Beta marinize are obviously not intended to be repaired if they can't be rebored. 

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1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

In which case I would rip it out and fit a brand new Canaline engine, current proven unit, good guarantee. You can use the existing gearbox, if its OK.

These Japanese engines that Beta marinize are obviously not intended to be repaired if they can't be rebored. 

 

They can be rebored, I think the manual mentions the availability of two oversized piston sizes. It was when the wear was greater than the largest oversized piston that they said new block. I think it should be able to accept sleeving back to standard, but without the minimum thickness of the bore wall I can't be sure.

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16 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

They can be rebored, I think the manual mentions the availability of two oversized piston sizes. It was when the wear was greater than the largest oversized piston that they said new block. I think it should be able to accept sleeving back to standard, but without the minimum thickness of the bore wall I can't be sure.

I did not understand that oversize were available from your post Tony.  Sleeving would not be economical, they want far too much these days even if you can find a machine shop able to do it. 

16 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

There's a Beta 28 on Ebay at the moment

One has always to ask why it is on ebay, I have never seen anyone sell a perfectly good engine on the bay, there is always a catch.

 

Having said that. the one from Altham Marine may be what you need but I would want to know exactly what has been done to a partly reconditioned engine. They may accept your scrap engine in PX.

 

Ignore the ones from Key Diesels, they can't even use English properly, there is no such thing as a refurnished engine unless it is big enough to live in!

There is history, not good, about Key.

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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Also, check the price of a new base engine: http://en.locator.engine.kubota.co.jp/map#Europe. Mostly, the dealers are very helpful. It's unlikely, I'd say, that the Beta bits are broke and for the money spent you get a brand new engine. Give the dealer your serial number, on the block below the injector pump, and they'll quote you.

 

A new head gasket might be £80 shipped. Check the price for your engine.

 

That's a lot of water for a blown gasket, as has been said. My guess would be fresh water from a sinking (cruiser stern?). If you are a badass (like Carol, late of Festival Park) you can test it by tasting. Otherwise take samples of the water/oil and coolant and freeze them. Higher tech solutions - probably.

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25 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

How to overhaul an engine, possibly produced by one of Key Diesel's mechanics?

 

Mechanic Jack

 

See? Five minute job, rebuilding an engine.

 

I noticed he missed out the 90 minutes of dicking about sometimes necessary bleeding the fuel system however.... DAMHIK.

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36 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

How to overhaul an engine, possibly produced by one of Key Diesel's mechanics?

 

Mechanic Jack

 

That's quite impressive.

I did not see them getting the old liners out,, and the adjustment of the rocker clearances looked a bit approximate, but they did look like they knew what they were doing.

Did somebody say its £3000 for an engine rebuild?????

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

That's quite impressive.

I did not see them getting the old liners out,, and the adjustment of the rocker clearances looked a bit approximate, but they did look like they knew what they were doing.

Did somebody say its £3000 for an engine rebuild?????

There are a lot of Mechanic Jack videos on face book fascinating to watch though a lot of comments about his "shortcuts"

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