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Please help! Insurance denied because I'm a dual citizen!


kellyjllek

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 So just bought my boat, and agreement of sale was based on me having insurance, as I want to be covered owning a new boat, as anyone would with house or vehicle. 

 

So we arranged it all over the phone and they sent me like a writ of some kind saying coverage was starting from transfer, but of course subject to this and that.. The again did ask me, with my if I was from the US. I didn't explain that I had dual citizenship, but did assure her I was born here and have UK citizenship. Now come Monday they've written to tell me they can't insure me because I'm also a US citizen.  

 

It seems discriminatory to say the least! I am a UK citizen. Now I'm told I'm not covered and I would not have gone through with the sale or would have kept some contingency. So how do I get coverage right away?  

 

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If their initial dealings with you are so muddled, confusing, offensive and downright barmy, would you really trust them with the insurance of a valuable boat? From what you say, they couldn't organise themselves to the lavatory and back.

   Loddon's advice is good - unless that's the company you're dealing with. Craftinsure is another one that you could try.

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12 minutes ago, kellyjllek said:

 So just bought my boat, and agreement of sale was based on me having insurance, as I want to be covered owning a new boat, as anyone would with house or vehicle. 

 

So we arranged it all over the phone and they sent me like a writ of some kind saying coverage was starting from transfer, but of course subject to this and that.. The again did ask me, with my if I was from the US. I didn't explain that I had dual citizenship, but did assure her I was born here and have UK citizenship. Now come Monday they've written to tell me they can't insure me because I'm also a US citizen.  

 

It seems discriminatory to say the least! I am a UK citizen. Now I'm told I'm not covered and I would not have gone through with the sale or would have kept some contingency. So how do I get coverage right away?  

 

Craftinsure on the net, no hassles, instant on line, not expensive.

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Don't know what the answer is for boat insurance, but I found it impossible to get US citizens added as temporary named drivers on my car insurance. Apparently it is straightforward for citizens of the EU (we were members at the time), Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa and a few other mostly commonwealth countries, but almost impossible for other countries.

But the car hire companies have no problem providing short term cover for people from across the world, so why is similar cover not available for the private motorist?

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3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Craftinsure on the net, no hassles, instant on line, not expensive.

Wouldn't recommend just doing it online with any insurer in the OP's situation. Could well find that the small print says no US citizens. The OP needs specific confirmation he will be covered.

 

Could also try Mike Stimpson of Circle Marine. 

01923 770425

michael.stimpson@circlemarine.co.uk

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What I didn't get into too was that company was going to go with the old survey as I was doing a new survey at the same time.  Now the new survey is done. I have not seen the report yet (may take a few more days). But the informal conversation with the surveyor said I'd have to get about £1000 worth of welding done on some part of the hull. . Naturally whatever the insurance situation is I want to get this done as soon as possible, but it may be weeks before it can be booked as I've yet to know exactly what is needed!

 

Anyway, Craftinsure according to their policies, won't cover without any survey work being done, and I can't imagine anyone else will either!  I'm going to try the one name mentioned as I can't imagine there aren't contingencies for these situations... Boat's change  hands all the time and work needs to be done. I can't imagine it's impossible to get coverage? 

 

Whatever work is needed is not dire.  Of course it has to be done, but it's not like the surveyor ways saying, "don't get on that boat!".  

 

Anyway, I'm just really disheartened because I tried to do my best to go about things the right way. I've spent upward of 10% of the purchase price on survey and drydocking, and I have a feeling that many at this price point don't bother with a survey. It's not an expensive boat, but it is to me!! 

 

Is there anyone that insures based on safety inspection or offer  insurance on a contingency of the situation?  Or hopefully I can at least get liability as someone mentioned? 

 

Much appreciate all the responses. 

Edited by kellyjllek
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Why is the sale agreement based on you having insurance? Before the sale, it is in the seller's interest for him to have insurance in his name (and a requirement to have third party cover if the boat is afloat), and he will want to keep his insurance going until the date of sale.

Once the boat is sold it's your problem, and the seller won't care whether it is insured or not.

In general you can only insure a boat which you own, so any insurance you take out earlier will only have effect from the day you take full ownership.

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I think the current survey was 2015.  

 

The agreement was me;  I didn't want to take over the boat without insurance. Her company said just to call them as we made the deal. We did, and they sent me something via email saying covered from 6pm Friday. It was whatever they send to people in this situation, so not sure of the legal definition, but I understood I was covered, though I'm assuming they had a ton of small print in there...       3 days later   I was emailed and told I was turned down turned down due to citizenship. 

 

Yeah seller was great, but you're right, they have no concern in me having insurance. They've got the money, I have the boat.  In retrospect I wish I'd worked something else out with them so that they maintained it in their name and coverage while I made sure of everything. 

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2015 survey will have no value to most insurers. That is 6 years old and insurers usually want older boats surveyed every 5 years.

 

That suggests that in the short term you may have to go third party only, and check with them your US citizenship is not a problem. Basic Boat are good, as MtB suggests.

Edited by David Mack
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7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

2015 survey will have no value to most insurers. That is 6 years old and insurers usually want older boats surveyed every 5 years.

 

That suggests that in the short term you may have to go third party only, and check with them your US citizenship is not a problem. Basic Boat are good, as MtB suggests.

Yeah all ready to do basic boat, but just want a couple others to get back to me first.   

If I get basic boat and then am able to get coverage elsewhere, any idea if I I forfeit the £75 pounds to or do they pro-rate what you don't use? 

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Mini update.  Survey is in (though I have yet to read!)  And the surveyor kindly recommended someone to talk too; so awaiting a call back.   Anyway, even though this isn't solved I'm happy for the options and feel confident I'll be able to work something out quickly .

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Not having vast amounts of expensive gear on the boat (barring the trombone, of course), and it rarely being my only home, I've never bothered with anything other than Basic Boat's third party insurance for all the years insurance haas been mandated. Before that, I never had any at all.

It would be interesting to know how many people on here had ever actually claimed anything on their insurance. I can see the point if you live on it, but not for a leisure craft.  There again, mine's only a cheap old tub - I can imagine if you're spending a hundred grand on something, or live in another country, you might feel a bit different!

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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When we were residents in australia we used collidge and partners. They were aware we were in australia 9 months of year.

No issues at all except they required the boat be inspected fortnightly. By inspected initially that involved a friend looking at it daily out of his office window.

our boat was 80 years old at this time as well as being open hold, so an insurance challenge in the first place

 

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12 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

When we were residents in australia we used collidge and partners. They were aware we were in australia 9 months of year.

No issues at all except they required the boat be inspected fortnightly. By inspected initially that involved a friend looking at it daily out of his office window.

our boat was 80 years old at this time as well as being open hold, so an insurance challenge in the first place

 

Which is a bit ridiculous, since there seem to be lots of boats that spend 9 months of the year in marinas unloved and unvisited, but whose owners happen to be in the UK.

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45 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

When we were residents in australia we used collidge and partners. They were aware we were in australia 9 months of year.

No issues at all except they required the boat be inspected fortnightly. By inspected initially that involved a friend looking at it daily out of his office window.

our boat was 80 years old at this time as well as being open hold, so an insurance challenge in the first place

 

Us specific:

"the reason Navigators and General have an underwriting stance as a business on US Citizens is due to OFAC trade and economic sanctions (The Office of Foreign Assets Control is a financial intelligence and enforcement agency of the U.S. Treasury Department) applicable to all US citizens, even those outside of the USA. Because of some of the breaches that can arise for an insurer failing to comply with this correctly is the reason why we do not insure US Citizens"

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If you're a full UK citizen then surely you have the same rights as any other UK citizen? You don't lose rights because you're also a citizen of another country.

 

A supplier of any services may deny their services to someone for whatever reasons they wish, but if it can be demonstrated that those reasons are discriminatory then they're on a sticky wicket. If you've got it in black and white that the reason they've cited for refusing to cover you is your dual citizenship then I can't help thinking you may have a case against them. 

 

I'd take it up with citizens advice bureau if you can be bothered.

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7 minutes ago, blackrose said:

If you're a full UK citizen then surely you have the same rights as any other UK citizen? You don't lose rights because you're also a citizen of another country.

The OP hasn't lost any rights. There is no 'right' to insurance, and the insurance company is free to make a commercial decision not to provide cover to particular individuals (providing they don't breach equality law).

I think what the corporate double speak is saying is that under US law insurance companies worldwide have legal obligations to US citizens, wherever they may be, and N&G cannot be certain that they comply with those obligations. The problem arises because US law claims such global coverage, even though that may seem unreasonable to us.

The OP may be better with an insurance company with stronger US links.

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32 minutes ago, kellyjllek said:

Us specific:

"the reason Navigators and General have an underwriting stance as a business on US Citizens is due to OFAC trade and economic sanctions (The Office of Foreign Assets Control is a financial intelligence and enforcement agency of the U.S. Treasury Department) applicable to all US citizens, even those outside of the USA. Because of some of the breaches that can arise for an insurer failing to comply with this correctly is the reason why we do not insure US Citizens"

 

American legislation is strange.

 

I was looking to buy a rifle from the USA and needed an export licence from BATF, one of the stipulations they made was that once I had purchased it and imported it into the UK, I was not allowed to sell it to any UK citizen for a period of  5 years, without that person being approved by the BATF.

I checked out the claim and yes - the US laws in certain instances cover the UK, as do the insurance laws mentioned by OFAC

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