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BMC 1.5 Oil with a lot of fuel in it.


mtbvincent

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Not much help but I don't see how a warn distributor head could pressurise the pump body. Yes, some high pressure fuel could leak into the body but you have the return to the fuel filter that would just leak t away. The only thing is that I have known the ball valve that is screwed into the filter head and the return pipe fixes into it to block with muck and that would allow the body to pressurise. Far more likely the seals have worn out or shrunk when they gave up the sulphur they had absorbed over the years of high sulphur fuel.

 

I think your best bet is to await recommendations from members for someone  to overhaul it.

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SERVICE EXCHANGE BMC 1.5 FUEL INJECTION PUMP MANUAL STOP RECONDITIONED - Calcutt Boats Ltd (calcuttboatsshop.com)

 

If your HP injection pump has not be replaced with a new or fully reconditioned one within the last 10 years, I would definitely recommend buying a reconditioned one from a well known company, NOT just some Wanabee injection pump specialist on Fleabay. It should be fitted by the best diesel engineer you can find in your area, That specialist must have or be working for a correctly registered UK company, or the warranty for the new pump will be invalid.

 

The alternative approach is to visit your nearest reputable fuel injection specialists workshop, and ask for a quote to check the pump over in terms of what is wrong with it. If it is a reputable company, they might just report that it just needs cleaning and a set of new seals. Once you have agreed terms for the required work, ask the injection shop if they can fit the pump, or for a recommendation etc. 

 

If you have not had the 4 injectors replaced or serviced correctly in the past 10 years, it's a good idea to include them with any deal you make with the local specialist. I would also recommend replacing the lift pump at the same time. 

 

Do not forget that if you fit a bad reconditioned pump, or foul up the installation task by getting the timing wrong, it's possible to badly damage the engine. 

 

Alas the job of replacing the HP pump will probably cost at least 400 quid, and another 2 to 300 quid for fully serviced injectors and a new lift pump.

 

Final comment, it appears that there are 2 types of pump, one with manual stop and the other with a solenoid. It would be good if TB, who is more familiar with the BMC 1500 than I am, would comment on the viability of fitting a solenoid cut off version to a manual version. It might just be an additional part is involved ??

Edited by TNLI
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As far as  know no 1.5 was fitted with an electric stop but automotive 1.8s were. I suspect a 1.8 DPA pup would go straight onto the 1.5 and might not even need recalibrating.

 

However the Calcutt 1.8 image shows a mechanical stop and I think the electric version is an energise to run so it is live al the time the engine is running. I also think that it is fitted in place of the large hexagon where the fuel inlet normally goes. If so I suspect it stops by simply cutting off the fuel supply rather than setting the governor to the no fuel (stop) position. If that is correct then as the transfer pump (in the DPA) will still be trying to suck fuel I feel it would be more prone to sucking air into the pump so it needs bleeding.

 

I also don't know what is wrong with a  decent stop cable system, it is simple, reliable and comparatively easy to repair and cheap. There is a lot wrong with a Bowden (choke type) cable system but using a Morse cable seem to work well.

 

I am sure that you could find an electric solenoid with a spring return to operate the manual lever but is it worth the effort and the risk of unreliability from the electric connections and switch.

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Thanks for that reply, and I would only consider changing the method of stopping my donkey, IF there was an approved BMC part involved. I prefer to use a manual stop with a Morse cable, and will use the second momentary on switch that is part of my universal type instrument panel for another purpose.

 

I will need to buy a new stop cable and push-pull unit, as the original one was binned due to its poor condition, although the main Morse controls were saved and seem to be in good order.

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Thanks for your time.

Does anyone know a certified dealer or address for a rebuild.

I have spoken with the people of Sheaf Diesel Services and the seem legit.

It would be nice if someone knows anyone hoe does this kind of repairs.

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40 minutes ago, mtbvincent said:

Thanks for your time.

Does anyone know a certified dealer or address for a rebuild.

I have spoken with the people of Sheaf Diesel Services and the seem legit.

It would be nice if someone knows anyone hoe does this kind of repairs.

 

As far as I know there is no certification scheme for diesel equipment specialists, especially on old equipment makes that has gone through several owners. the best you can hope for is personal recommendation. A I am far away from our area I can't really help.

 

Edited to add. Is this the boat in the fens? If so I had a good Google for likely places and none came up very nearby.

 

I would suggest that you go to a local general garage (not a main dealer and ask them who they use or better still an agricultural engineers or transport workshop.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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I live in Holland and the thing is this kind of engine is not used or widely used.

Therefore i am looking abroad, and its no problem to send out my old pump for a rebuild or trade part. 

The thing is i don't know ho is at the other end of the line 😄

I need someone i can trust with my pump, because there are a lot off rebuilds not correctly done as far as i know.

My Connoisseur 900 did cost quite allot since i owned it and i cant afford double costs.


 

 

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2 hours ago, mtbvincent said:

I live in Holland and the thing is this kind of engine is not used or widely used.

Therefore i am looking abroad, and its no problem to send out my old pump for a rebuild or trade part. 

The thing is i don't know ho is at the other end of the line 😄

I need someone i can trust with my pump, because there are a lot off rebuilds not correctly done as far as i know.

My Connoisseur 900 did cost quite allot since i owned it and i cant afford double costs.


 

 

I have used and trust this company if it helps.

https://stockport.cylex-uk.co.uk/company/r-wilkinson-diesel-service-ltd-13005769.html.

 

I have also used this company,

https://www.pfjones.co.uk/diesel-fuel-pumps-and-injectors.html

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Sheffield is too far North of Holland.

 

Calcutt are much nearer to Holland, just a quick trip across the channel and the Norfolk broads. 

 

ASAP don't list the HP pumps.

Edited by TNLI
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I don't things are so easy with DPA pumps in Europe as far as I can see. I have had several emails about them from Holland mainly.

 

Maybe best to get one from the likes of Calcutt who should warrantee it for a while. However I have no idea abut likely import delays, duty etc.

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Service Exchange - Calcutt Boats Ltd (calcuttboatsshop.com)

 

It would be a good idea to call them, as they will probably want the old pump to be posted to them first, or an extra deposit paid. 

 

Good thing Tony has pointed out that the HP pump has some type of non standard part or special tool requirement that makes it difficult for an overseas company to rebuild it.

 

If you do have a boat overseas, it is often a good investment to buy a new critical part, as the consequences of the long delay involved in shipping to some places, and customs or tax charges can be problematic. It's also important that any parts are listed as required for a, " Boat in transit", in some cases. 

 

If I survive building my lifeboat, I will probably spend around a grand on a spares kit, and the HP fuel pump would be on that list for sure, if it is a problematic part. I wonder if there are any other oddball parts, apart from the torsional damper that no one seems to know where to obtain a new one.

 

In some cases, it is cheaper and faster to simply fly over with an El-cheapo airline, to buy a part, particularly if it's a service exchange unit.

Edited by TNLI
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At a pinch ,anyone of reasonable mechanical aptitude can replace the drive shaft seals in a DPA pump.....in fact I would say the reversible governor DPA is a very simple device ,compared to the likes of the Bosch VE/VF distributor pump.

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14 hours ago, john.k said:

At a pinch ,anyone of reasonable mechanical aptitude can replace the drive shaft seals in a DPA pump.....in fact I would say the reversible governor DPA is a very simple device ,compared to the likes of the Bosch VE/VF distributor pump.

 

It would be good if you could post a video of how that is done, and where you can buy the seals. 

 

What is odd about the premature degradation of the HP fuel pump seals, is that no one has said why they fail.

 

Lots of possibilities, like Silicon particles in the fuel, overheating of the pumps body, (Unlikely), bad oil that is also contaminated with tiny Silicon or Iron particles. Lack of fuel lubricity due to the use of cheap red diesel.

 

I'm sure there is a reason, its just a matter of finding it, as it might just be caused by the wrong type of seal material.

Edited by TNLI
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Just now, TNLI said:

 

It would be good if you could post a video of how that is done, and where you can buy the seals. 

 

What is odd about the premature degradation of the HP fuel pump seals, is that no one has said why the fail.

 

Lots of possibilities, like Silicon particles in the fuel, overheating of the pumps body, (Unlikely), bad oil that is also contaminated with tiny Silicon or Iron particles. Lack of fuel lubricity due to the use of cheap red diesel.

 

I'm sure there is a reason, its just a matter of finding it, as it might just be caused by the wrong type of seal material.

 

I have explained why they fail and it is not really premature.

 

With old, high sulphur diesel as the seal opre they also absorbed sulphur from the fuel so they swelled, taking up the wear. Once we moved to low sulphur fuel the seals gave up sulphur to the fuel and shrunk. and leaked.

 

There is also a question about how FAME affects older seals. Hopefully when a pump is overhauled FAME tolerant seals will be fitted.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I have explained why they fail and it is not really premature.

 

With old, high sulphur diesel as the seal opre they also absorbed sulphur from the fuel so they swelled, taking up the wear. Once we moved to low sulphur fuel the seals gave up sulphur to the fuel and shrunk. and leaked.

 

There is also a question about how FAME affects older seals. Hopefully when a pump is overhauled FAME tolerant seals will be fitted.

 

 

Thanks, I will ask the Liqui Moly R&D chaps if they make a fuel additive to overcome that Sulphur related issue, and can you just remind me if you are talking about Red diesel, or the more expensive car diesel.

 

  I'm not a fan of some cheap red fuel suppliers, as the quality of it might be perfectly OK for a diesel tractor, but I would never use it in an engine I own, unless I can find a suitable fuel additive to prevent it damaging the injection pump seals. I'm sure the Germans at LM will know if one of their fuel additives will allow me to use Red diesel. 

 

One quick off topic point is that, the LM R&D chaps did list a 20w50 high detergent engine oil, not a 15w40 which because they really do know about engine oil, is almost certainly related to fuel contamination of the oil. Many BMC 1500 engines that have old HP pumps will have a fairly interesting issue with diesel fuel thinning the oil to a lower viscosity. So thicker is better and it also helps if it has a higher than normal level of Zinc/Magnesium (DZZP) based anti wear additives, as the protection that additive offers is much more important if the oil film starts to break down due to diesel contamination. 

 

Diesel Lubricity Additive - Additives (liqui-moly.com)

 

I will ask the LM R&D chap about that fuel additive. He already knows the engine involved is an old BMC 1500. 

 

In reality you are in effect using the wrong type of diesel fuel, BUT it might be OK if that additive is suitable. Normal major brand diesel fuel from 

does have additives to protect injection pump seals, so it's probably not needed for that type of fuel.

Edited by TNLI
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I am talking about both  red diesel and white diesel as supplied through the years in the UK. The low sulphur directive applied to all diesel fuels. The only difference I found when I obtained red and white data sheets was that the red had a slightly lower lower limit for cetane rating and the would not affect the  seals but may make diesel nock a little worse.

 

it seem that the mandatory FAME is white diesel is now likely to be present  an the red diesel you buy because it is, in fact, white diesel with the dye and trace chemical added.

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45 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am talking about both  red diesel and white diesel as supplied through the years in the UK. The low sulphur directive applied to all diesel fuels. The only difference I found when I obtained red and white data sheets was that the red had a slightly lower lower limit for cetane rating and the would not affect the  seals but may make diesel nock a little worse.

 

it seem that the mandatory FAME is white diesel is now likely to be present  an the red diesel you buy because it is, in fact, white diesel with the dye and trace chemical added.

It's a lot more complicated than just the basic figures, as each fuel company has its own additives that it uses, and the lubricity one is very important if you have some types of HP seals. Liqui Moly do make a diesel fuel additive designed specifically for that issue, as it effects some older car engines.

 

I think we discussed the difference before and you need to find a fuel analysis report to know what each company is selling in exact contents terms. They vary from company to company and with the time of year. Cheaper red diesel or even non major brand normal fuel companies have a nasty habit of not adding anything, and are even out of limits on some basic parameters. Like engine oil, you really do need to study the subject in detail, or be able to ask a real additives expert. Fuel analysis reports are the key to knowing if a particular fuel is going to degrade HP seals or not. Oddly enough there may be a cheaper solution to using an LM fuel additive, as Bio diesel is much better as regards natural lubricity, although I will have to look up how much is required.

 

Diesel Lubricity Additive - Additives (liqui-moly.com)

 

Description With the majority of low-sulphur diesel fuels, wear in the fuel-lubricated distributor injection pumps which are installed in passenger vehicles and small heavy goods vehicles is increased if lubricant additives are not added to the diesel fuel. The additive is a combination of agents which has been especially developed for low-sulphur diesel fuels to help reduce wear in the fuel-lubricated distributor injection pumps.
Fuel Type Diesel
Content 150 ml
Application Added before or after filling up with fuel. 150 ml pack sufficient for 80 l of diesel fuel. Dosage 1:533
Edited by TNLI
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Gasoil Analysis | Red Diesel Testing | The Oil Lab

 

I don't know that company or how much they charge for a FAR, (Fuel Analysis Report), but I will send them a message to see if they can comment on which Red or Marine diesel companies are adding lubricity additives. I know some of the more expensive marine diesel supply companies did add something that increased their fuels lubricity, but that was years ago. If your local fuel company does add it, then it will probably be mentioned on the web site some place, BUT only if it is a trustworthy major brand fuel company, as it's not uncommon for some Red or cheap diesel fuel suppliers to talk the talk about Biocides and Lubricity adds, but then forget to include them. 

 

If you do decide to use a diesel fuel additive, I really would not use one from any company apart from the same list as I always recommend for engine oils, Liqui Moly, Mobil, Castrol and Shell. I read some UOA results for some oil additives from minor Wanabee companies that were are real horror story, with one selling what appeared to be a used machine oil that had been filtered, as a flush additive.

 

If you think your injectors might be a bit clogged up with varnish deposits, LM do make a very popular additive for use during the cars fuel filter service. It's called Diesel Purge and is not a drive around additive, its only fed through the injection system with the engine at idle.

Some diesels that are used at low power, as many canal boats are, tend to suffer from the effects of varnish like deposits clogging up their injectors, the tips in particular.

 

PS: it appears this oil lab does used oil analysis, for a reasonable figure: 

 

Car Engine Oil Analysis | Best Oil Testing Lab UK | The Oil Lab

 

Not sure how they display the results, as you would need to have spent a few days studying UOA to understand what they mean, AND a real good lab like Blackstones in the US has a set of average figures for most engine types, which makes it easier in comparison terms. They also comment on all results, so they will tell you what is wrong, with comments like, this oil is badly contaminated with diesel fuel and should be changed ASAP, or the high Lead and Iron figures suggest a developing issue with the main bearings, so you might consider changing to a thicker oil with more Zinc/Magnesium, (DZZP), additives.

Nearly all the big 18 wheel trucks and buses in the US, and many in the UK & EU, only change their oil when a test sample, (100ml), shows that they need to change the oil, filter, or both. Oddly enough changing the oil too early can increase wear in many cases, although that is a complicated story in explanation terms.

 

If you really want your beloved new or even old donkey to last as long as possible before it starts smoking or failing to start, understanding the basics of an oil analysis report, and the issues associated with poor quality oils and fuel, along with how you operate a diesel to avoid extra wear occurring, will make a big difference. There are also a number of mod's that can help increase the life expectancy of a diesel, like 12V stick on heat pads to warm up the oil and entire engine, (If you leave the pads on all night), like those made by Wolverine. Avoiding cold starts is one good move in main block wear terms.

Edited by TNLI
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3 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

I think we discussed the difference before and you need to find a fuel analysis report to know what each company is selling in exact contents terms. They vary from company to company and with the time of year. Cheaper red diesel or even non major brand normal fuel companies have a nasty habit of not adding anything, and are even out of limits on some basic parameters. Like engine oil, you really do need to study the subject in detail, or be able to ask a real additives expert. Fuel analysis reports are the key to knowing if a particular fuel is going to degrade HP seals or not. Oddly enough there may be a cheaper solution to using an LM fuel additive, as Bio diesel is much better as regards natural lubricity, although I will have to look up how much is required.

 

But in reality this is completely impractical - I turn up at a boat yard (be it Norbury, Turner Brothers, Nantwich etc.) and want to buy fuel. I can't get fuel tests done and I can't imagine any of them taking kindly to me basically accusing them of selling crap fuel. I don't know who provides their fuel (Turners will be same as their road fuel) and even if I did I wouldn't have a clue if that provider is a poor supplier.

 

5 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

It would be good if you could post a video of how that is done, and where you can buy the seals. 

 

What is odd about the premature degradation of the HP fuel pump seals, is that no one has said why they fail.

 

Lots of possibilities, like Silicon particles in the fuel, overheating of the pumps body, (Unlikely), bad oil that is also contaminated with tiny Silicon or Iron particles. Lack of fuel lubricity due to the use of cheap red diesel.

 

I'm sure there is a reason, its just a matter of finding it, as it might just be caused by the wrong type of seal material.

 

Define premature. We've had our BMC since 1986 ( bought from Mick Seivewright at Barbridge ), two rebuilds (Calcutt and Upton) and we've never had a problem and don't have a problem. Last rebuild would have been round about 2005

Edited by StephenA
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4 hours ago, TNLI said:

In reality you are in effect using the wrong type of diesel fuel, BUT it might be OK if that additive is suitable. Normal major brand diesel fuel from 

does have additives to protect injection pump seals, so it's probably not needed for that type of fuel.

 

This is just getting silly ..... what "wrong type" of diesel fuel? How do I know I'm being sold the wrong type of diesel fuel?

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1 hour ago, StephenA said:

 

This is just getting silly ..... what "wrong type" of diesel fuel? How do I know I'm being sold the wrong type of diesel fuel?

It's red, although there might be a few exceptions from top of the fuel supply game, probably BP marine diesel.

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1 hour ago, StephenA said:

 

This is just getting silly ..... what "wrong type" of diesel fuel? How do I know I'm being sold the wrong type of diesel fuel?

 

Just ask your HP fuel pump seals supply company, or one of the experts that reconditions BMC HP pumps at Calcutta boats, I'm sure they will jump up and down and say, "Don't worry be happy with your red diesel supplier, and please don't even think about using a lubricity additive or adding Bio diesel, that would be a really bad idea", 

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14 minutes ago, TNLI said:

It's red, although there might be a few exceptions from top of the fuel supply game, probably BP marine diesel.

 

As it seems all brands draw fuel from the same bulk storage tanks, perhaps with the brand's own additive pack being mixed as part of the filing process there can not be much wrong with the base fuel in the UK. To the best of my knowledge all diesel contains lubricity improvers to meet the relevant EN/BS standard in the UK, be it FAME or other things. One thing is for sure the industrial and agricultural common rail diesels that run on red would be in serious trouble if the fuel was materially sub standard lubricity wise.

 

Calcutt do not overhaul their own pumps, they send them to a specialist.

 

UK boats simply do not suffer unreliability of the injection system. They last for tens of years, even the DPA pumps. Of course when compared with newer pumps a 60 year old pump is more likely to leak and  there are a lot of them in our boats. Nothing last forever and it is silly to expect it t,  especially when it was the first of a generation that seems to be designed to be robot built and down to a price.

 

 

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