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BMC 1.5 Oil with a lot of fuel in it.


mtbvincent

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Hello to you all.

My name is Vincent from Holland and hope to learn more about my engine this way.

I have a Connoisseur 900 since a few months with a 1.5 BMC.

The engine has had a problem ūüėĒ¬†it went crazy!! i think it is called runaway diesel.

The oil was to high and come into my air intake. The reason was allot of fuel that has come into the engine-oil.

I stopt the engine within a minute bij pressing the exhoust with a ragg, sow i hope it will survive¬†ūüė®

 

Sow my initial idee was the small fuel pump and i have replaced this.

Now i still think my oil level is comming up a little bit by time.

Alsow without even running the engine.. sow when it sits still i think my level on the dipstick rises. 

 

My question, 

*Is it possible fueal is leaking into the engine when its sits still?

*Has enyone got a idea of the there is another part that can couse this, i am thinking of the Big fuel pump has anyone had a it leaking on the inside? 

 

Thanks for your time¬†ūüôĆ

 

With kind regards, 

 

Vincent (Holland) 

 

 

 

 

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Since the introduction of low sulphur diesel, it has been drawing absorbed sulphur out of "rubber" seals and shrinking them so they now leak. I will lay odds it's the main shaft seal on the DPA injector pump. The body is pressurised when running, so could leak a lot of fuel in a few hours.

 

Any decent UK diesel pump  specialist should be able to fit new seals but I understand for other's from Holland and close by countries finding one that knows DPA pumps is far more difficult. You could get a price from Calcutt Boats or any UK pump specialists, but they would want your existing pump getting to them.

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Thanks for your help Tony.

Sow it is possible that the pump is leaking inwards? 

I wil check my local diesel specialist if he knows the pump.

This weekend i am finaly taking the boat out for a smal trip.. curious to see what the oil level does after a couple of hours runnig.

Just to be sure i have taken the hose of that runs the oil pan fuems back into the engine...

 

 

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2 minutes ago, mtbvincent said:

Thanks for your help Tony.

Sow it is possible that the pump is leaking inwards? 

I wil check my local diesel specialist if he knows the pump.

This weekend i am finaly taking the boat out for a smal trip.. curious to see what the oil level does after a couple of hours runnig.

Just to be sure i have taken the hose of that runs the oil pan fuems back into the engine...

 

 

 

I suspect the runaway was caused by very much thinned and excessive oil splash being forced up into the combustion chamber rather than via the breather system, but it's a good precaution.

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Thanks again.

All the information is welcome, i am learning allot more than i thought.

If there are other ways or things  i need to check i am more than happy to try them out.

 

In the end the most important thing is a safe journey¬†so i will do wat is needed to fix my lovely boat¬†‚ėļÔłŹ

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11 minutes ago, mtbvincent said:

Thanks again.

All the information is welcome, i am learning allot more than i thought.

If there are other ways or things  i need to check i am more than happy to try them out.

 

In the end the most important thing is a safe journey¬†so i will do wat is needed to fix my lovely boat¬†‚ėļÔłŹ

 

Yes, and neglecting it can be expensive (new camshaft and pump drive gear).

 

At the back left-hand side of the block (looking from the flywheel end towards the pulleys) and below the back of the exhaust manifold, there is a horizontal hexagon bolt head screwed into a swelling on the side of the block. About halfway down the swelling and to one side is another hexagon set at an angle to the block side, but vertical this time. The horizontal one has a long oil strainer gauze "pencil" under it, and the vertical one has an oil jet on it. Ensure these are clean and in good order. If they block, the gears driving the injector pump do not get enough lubrication, so wear badly. It should not be a frequent job as long as you keep on top of oil and filter changes, say every few years.

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Cleaning the fuel injector pump driving gear lubricator and lubricator filter was listed as a necessary  part of the 6,000 mile / 10,000km or 6 monthly service by BMC / British Leyland for the 1.5 diesel . I suspect not many such engines in narrowboats get that much attention. 

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@ Tony Thanks i will look into this, great advice.

 

@Troyboy ahh indeed i dont think many people are aware of all the thing that are needed.. including me¬†ūüôɬ†Thanks for the advice.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Troyboy said:

Cleaning the fuel injector pump driving gear lubricator and lubricator filter was listed as a necessary  part of the 6,000 mile / 10,000km or 6 monthly service by BMC / British Leyland for the 1.5 diesel . I suspect not many such engines in narrowboats get that much attention. 

 

Remember, originally it was before detergent diesel oils became commonplace. They really did get dirty running on the SAE 30 oil of the day. I am sure with the correct API CC to CF oil, very little cleaning will normally be required.

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It was in a 1971 British Leyland  publication that I read the need for the cleaning at 6,000 mile intervals . A 6,000 mile service for the Morris Oxford / Austin A60 diesel cost £6.64p obviously that didn't include materials . Those were the days .

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I found a tread witch describes the part including pictures. 

 

 

By a week or sow i will repley to inform you guys.

Dont think i wil dismantle the pump itself whitin a short time.. will see 

 

Thanks again for te support guys its appreciated 

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Overhauling and resealing the injection pump requires a clinically clean workspace and the correct calibration equipment. I am unsure if the shaft seals could be changed without recalibration, never tried it. Seal kits are available however. I have always just given the pump to a specialist and it comes back clean and set up properly but I know nothing of the facilities abroad.

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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You are right about the fuel pump.. it needs to be done by a professional.

After my trip this weekend i will know if its necessary to do it imediately or after the summer.

I hope it wil be ok for now id rather go out with my family in stead of working in the engine room.... again 

 

I will let you guys know.

Thanks again¬†ūüėÉ

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5 hours ago, mtbvincent said:

You are right about the fuel pump.. it needs to be done by a professional.

After my trip this weekend i will know if its necessary to do it imediately or after the summer.

I hope it wil be ok for now id rather go out with my family in stead of working in the engine room.... again 

 

I will let you guys know.

Thanks again¬†ūüėÉ

Have you checked the diaphragm in the lift pump ?   Even a small split would let fuel into the crankcase so I would check this out before doing anything with the injector pump.

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4 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Have you checked the diaphragm in the lift pump ?   Even a small split would let fuel into the crankcase so I would check this out before doing anything with the injector pump.

He has already replaced the "small pump", that would be the lift pump.

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Hi guys 

Did not get the chance to go out for a long trip.. did manege to take it out for 2 hours.

Engine runs fine no smoke or strange noises, haven't run it over 1200 rpm and looks like the oil level stays the same.

Off course 2 hours is not enough to make an estimation, i hope to get some time off next week and take it out for a trip.

I am hoping the internal leaking is minimal so i can wait until the winter season.

 

@Flyboy Thanks for the reply i did already replace the small - lifter pump. 

 

Thanks for your help and i will let you know how it runs after a big trip.

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/08/2021 at 16:27, mtbvincent said:

I found a tread witch describes the part including pictures. 

 

 

By a week or sow i will repley to inform you guys.

Dont think i wil dismantle the pump itself whitin a short time.. will see 

 

Thanks again for te support guys its appreciated 

Thanks for that as I did not know that the HP fuel pump had an oil screen filter. I'm sure it gets missed out during routine services by a lot of owners or folks responsible for servicing the engine. I've only looked at the user manual and did not see a diagram of it.

 

The BMC 1500 is listed as having an issue with fuel contamination from HP seals that do not function as intended. Although the seals might need to be changed every thousand hours or so, it does help if you change the oil often enough to keep the diesel contamination down to 2%, the figure quoted by oil labs for preventing long term wear. Alas you can only smell it on a hot dipstick when the contamination reaches 5%. Diesel fuel thins the oil down and oddly enough keeps the block fairly clean of sludge, however thin oil is bad news, as is too much oil, so it really does need changing more often until you resolve the pump seal issue.

 

There is another way of reducing fuel contamination caused by oil seals and that is to use a thicker oil, like a 20w50 in summer. Another option I would look at is to change to a high mileage or EL, (Extended Life) oil that was designed for older engines. The one I like is Mobil 1 10w60 EL, (Don't buy the EP version as that's a race oil), as it contains more seal conditioners to help reduce fuel contamination or oil leak issues. The combination of thicker oil and seal conditioners should make a big difference.

 

Finally a lot of folks tend to resort to oil additives to help solve or reduce seal related issues. I only do that as a last resort, but if you must try them, Liqui Moly do make a good range of oil and fuel additives that do exactly what is written on the can or in the data sheet. You can use them if really necessary by attacking the problem from both sides, by using a fuel additive to increase the fuels lubricity, and their popular oil stop leak additive to coat and swell old seals.

 

LM OIL SAVER:  Motor Oil Saver - Additives (liqui-moly.com)

 

FUEL ADDITIVE: Diesel Lubricity Additive - Additives (liqui-moly.com)

 

You might also look at using a better fuel that has more Bio diesel content. Red diesel might be cheap, but it often cheap for reasons other than low or no tax. I only use major brand diesel from a garage that cleans its filters, or resort to using a Baja pre filter before putting it into the tank. 

 

Let us all know who makes a good recon HP and lift pump, as I'm going to add both to my offshore spares list.

Edited by TNLI
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WARNING TO NEWER MEMBERS AND BOATERS. This member specialises in  resurrecting old threads to push his views.

 

Much of the above is probably best filed under the heading of gross misinformation.

 

There were virtually no cases of the injector pump oil seals leaking until much of the sulphur was removed from the fuel. This was because the sulphur caused the oil seals and O rings to gradually swell, and in doing so took up any wear. After the fuel changed, the seals gradually gave the sulphur up and shrunk slightly, so the worn seals then leaked. Please ignore talk of 1000 hours. Many DPA pumps on BMCs and Perkins have dome tens of times more hours than that without problems.

 

Please do keep and eye on your  engine oil level if you have a DPA, or come to that a Bosch Rotary, injection pump and act if the level starts rising but it is not the problem this particular poster makes out.

 

The whole body of the DPA pump is pressurised when running. The actual pressure varies, but it will probably be well over 10 PSI (perhaps a member who knows more about these pumps than I do can give a typical figure). The pressure in the engine cavity should be all but zero unless the crankcase breather is blocked. No change of oil will have much if any effect on the shaft  seal leaking.

 

A worn seal is a worn seal and using an additive to swell may not affect a cure and it is likely to be short-lived.

 

In this and other topics, he keeps pushing products branded Liquid Moly but has not admitted to any interest in this minor UK brand - ask yourselves why.

 

He also seems to be unaware that these pumps are unlikely to be available as new these days, they all tend to be overhauled units, indeed I have a feeling some spares are no longer available. If you have an injector pump problem, tell this forum where you are and we will recommend a local diesel equipment specialist to overhaul it for you. As far as the lift pump is concerned the same companies would be likely to supply a new one but so de the likes of ASAP supplies and Calcutt boats.

 

 

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@TNLI also needs to know that since the adoption of USLD in this country, there is no physical difference between red and white diesel other than the addition of a red dye and different fuel duty levels.

 

This is the reason why oil heaters such as Eberslutters no longer clag up when used on red diesel.

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2 hours ago, cuthound said:

@TNLI also needs to know that since the adoption of USLD in this country, there is no physical difference between red and white diesel other than the addition of a red dye and different fuel duty levels.

 

This is the reason why oil heaters such as Eberslutters no longer clag up when used on red diesel.

I don't use red diesel because it lacks additives, although they do vary from company to company. This is a copy from a well known expert about the differences:

 

It’s less refined at times and doesn’t contain the winterized anti gel additives that on the road diesel fuel has. It can also contain more sulfur then diesel number one which is actually good for the engine because it’s the lubricating portion of the fuel. Most off road manufacturers of Diesel engines recommend using on the road diesel fuel during winter months. Personally I use dyed diesel number two all year with my own additives.

 

For the record I don't use any Liqui Moly oils or additives in any of the boats I own, they are too expensive in the UK. I've used their idle flush and stop leak in the Germany.

 

When it comes to engines oil I presently use Shell Ultra 5w40 in an old diesel Volvo, and 0w40 in a petrol Renault Twingo. I based that decision on used oil analysis which showed results identical to the best of the Synthoils. For my own lifeboat I will start by using Delvac 10w40 and then compare actual UOA results with the following oil recommended by the professionals at Liqui Moly:

thank you for your inquiry and your interest in LIQUI MOLY products.

For the BMC 1500 diesel, I recommend our LIQUI MOLY Touring High Tech 20W-50,
because this high performance mineral oil exceed all the needed requirements and it provides a stable oil film even under extreme conditions.

Here the link to our product information:

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pidoc/P000213/1250-TouringHighTech20W-50-45.0-en.pdf

Should you have any further questions, please contact us.
Freundliche Gr√ľ√üe / Best regards
 
i. A. Roman Göser
Anwendungstechniker
application engineer
   
F & E / Anwendungstechnik
   
Phone:        +49 731 1420-644
Fax:        +49 731 1420-82
roman.goeser@liqui-moly.de
     
LIQUI MOLY GmbH
Jerg-Wieland-Straße 4 | 89081 Ulm | GERMANY
   
www.liqui-moly.com

 

 

Back on topic, if you suffer from fuel contamination from poor seals and can't afford to get a recon pump, (At least 300 quid), then make sure you change the oil more often and use a major brand oil designed for older diesels that has seal conditioners. If you like Castrol, their basic cheap 15w40 does have seal conditioners, whereas most of their more expensive HC synthetics do not. 

  Not used LM 20w50 as their expert suggested for a BMC, but will try that one next summer. It's a tad too thick for this winter, and trying to match the oils viscosity to the start temperature is important in long term wear factors.

Edited by TNLI
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Please supply a link to that quote, it could be years out of date. One needs to see the whole thing to judge what it is actually saying, rather than what you seem to want us to think it is saying.

 

My understanding, like Cuthound's, is that apart from the FAME free red diesel that is sometimes available, nowadays, red diesel is just road diesel died red.

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Red diesel can be very different in additive terms to major brand white diesel. If you want to know more this is a real good source for information on diesel fuel types and contents:

 

Diesel Fuel - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

 

A lot of boat owners use red diesel that was intended for use in farm equipment, and that can be real bad news. If you read the above, it contains less BIO diesel content which is every bit as good as a lubricity additive. It's that lack that can effect HP fuel pumps. Red diesel does not contain anti gel agents in winter, so it will start to form wax in the fuel filter at around minus 15C, whereas white diesel from a major brand should be good down to minus 23 to minus 25C. 

  What you do not want in diesel is recycled vegetable oil, and alas some farm red diesel does contain it. Veggie oil is a real negative in lubricity terms, it's OK in a tractor diesel but not in a modern marine diesel unless you use a good diesel fuel additive.

 

This is one part of the above article link that is very interesting:

7.2.3 Lubricity improvers and friction modifiers

The diesel fuel fraction of crude oil contains sulphur and nitrogen compounds that provide natural lubrication to protect vehicle fuel pumps and injectors from wear. Fuel sulphur limits are becoming progressively more stringent and widespread, and the process of desulphurisation of diesel fuel tends to remove these naturally occurring lubricating components from the diesel fuel. Many diesel fuel injection systems rely on this lubricity and the absence of such compounds will result in fuel that gives increased wear and eventual failure of critical fuel-delivery system components.

Low sulphur and ultra low sulphur (ULSD) diesel fuels are frequently additised with lubricity additives to protect critical injection system components. Lubricity additives are generally classified as neutral or acidic. Neutral additives, esters and amides, may require higher treat rates compared to more cost-effective, mono-acid lubricity additives (see Fig. 7.2), and the mono-acid type has become the most commonly used, often being able to deliver the necessary lubricity improvements at the lowest treat cost and at treat rates of around 100 ppm.

 

So regardless of what some posters say is causing HP pump damage, it all depends on the additives in the fuel, that's why I only use major brand white diesel, and at present that means finding a BP or Shell fuel station. Cheap fuel is like cheap engine oil, you get what you pay for!

Edited by TNLI
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  • Athy changed the title to BMC 1.5 Oil with a lot of fuel in it.

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