Beta Marine 28 starter motor removal problems

[Karen Lea Rainey]

UPDATE, UPDATE, UPDATE,

Started from beginning of fault finding again.

1 starter battery removed, cleaned and sanded all contacts etc, battery dated new in August 2020, allowed to rest for 1 hr, volt test 12.6 volts

3 leisure batteries all removed, cleaned and sanded all contacts, allowed to rest for 1 hour , volt test 12.8, 12.8, 12.7, all replaced Sept 2020.

Put sizeable wide blade thick mortar chisel in starter motor hole, try to prise the flywheel in any direction.

NO MOVEMENT WHATSOVER FROM THE FLY WHEEL.

Remove rocker box cover to see any movement, 

Put a ratchet socket 15mm on one of the  3 crankcase nuts( there is no single big nut), STILL NO MOVEMENT, my ratchet moved a bit, then a bit more,

I've rounded the bolt, tried one more bolt, stopped before rounding another bolt.

Then I thought is there water in the piston / chamber. So took all 3 injectors out, 

Back to the fly wheel end with a bit more leverage. STILL NO MOVEMENT FROM THE FLYWHEEL  OR THE VALVES/ TAPPETS.

 

I believe its seized and the heads now gotta come off,

Over to the engineers at Streethay now, briefed  them on what I've done so far. They said they will sort it, one old boy there even mentioned he could do it with a vinegar mixture and ATF, leave it for 3 or 4 days, then tap the pistons with a bit of wood.

Leave it here we will sort it they said.

Fingers and toes crossed now for a small bill.

 

[booke23]

3 minutes ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Fingers and toes crossed now for a small bill.

 

I fear the prospect of this is receding with every update. 

[Karen Lea Rainey]

5 hours ago, MtB said:

My own reading of it is the sequence of events was perhaps slightly different from what they remember. I'd guess what actually happened was the engine spontaneously stopped running late in the day (probably overheated) so they moored up for the night, hoping it would start again in the morning.

 

But when it didn't start they called a breakdown bod who after a cursory check established the engine was seized and with no further investigation told them a new engine costing £10k all inclusive was required. Hence the tow back to the yard and selling it cheap. 

Mike, I think you've hit the nail on head, again. Everything I've done now leads me to overheating, possibly stopping through having to at the last minute.

Following morning it's to late.

Just hope now that it's not to bad a seize and can be repaired reasonably cheaply. Thanks for your input.

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Cheshire cat said:

I'm surprised you are advocating turning the motor over using a screwdriver on the flywheel.

 

I wouldn't have expected it would be possible to overcome the compression. I've done it on a petrol engine but that would have a lower compression and it's always possible to take the plugs out.

 

It will be interesting to read tonight's installment.

 

You can turn a diesel over Slowly by hand relatively easily, and using a screwdriver in the starter ring is slow.

This works because you turn it a bit and by the time you have got the screwdriver into the next tooth the compression has leaked past the rings

 

............Dave

[MtB]

27 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

You can turn a diesel over Slowly by hand relatively easily, and using a screwdriver in the starter ring is slow.

This works because you turn it a bit and by the time you have got the screwdriver into the next tooth the compression has leaked past the rings

 

............Dave

 

Specifically, the compression rings on a piston are neither complete rings (they have a gap) nor do they form a perfect gas-tight seal to the pistons, so air in the cylinder escapes past them as the engine is rotated two or three ring gear teeth at a time.

 

I exaggerated in my previous post. It will probably take about ten minutes to rotate the engine two whole revs using a screwdriver. Still a far quicker information-gathering excercise than fitting another starter motor and seeing it that works. 

[dmr]

15 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Specifically, the compression rings on a piston are neither complete rings (they have a gap) nor do they form a perfect gas-tight seal to the pistons, so air in the cylinder escapes past them as the engine is rotated two or three ring gear teeth at a time.

 

I exaggerated in my previous post. It will probably take about ten minutes to rotate the engine two whole revs using a screwdriver. Still a far quicker information-gathering excercise than fitting another starter motor and seeing it that works. 

 

Those of us with big front pulleys (or rear in your case 😀) can easily turn the engine over by hand just by grabbing the pulley, and with experience and a bit of luck can even do a very approximate compression test.

 

...............Dave

[MtB]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

 

Those of us with big front pulleys (or rear in your case 😀) can easily turn the engine over by hand just by grabbing the pulley, and with experience and a bit of luck can even do a very approximate compression test.

 

...............Dave

 

It's seriously un-funny getting your finger caught under the V belt though, doing that! 

[Phoenix_V]

when our ha3 seized (lack of use not overheating though) it could not be moved on the handstart even with compressors off, but the starter motor free'd it instantly

1 hour ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Mike, I think you've hit the nail on head, again. Everything I've done now leads me to overheating, possibly stopping through having to at the last minute.

Following morning it's to late.

Just hope now that it's not to bad a seize and can be repaired reasonably cheaply. Thanks for your input.

don't forget to find out why it overheated in the first place!

 

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

It's seriously un-funny getting your finger caught under the V belt though, doing that! 

 

My outer pulley has a polyV so although tighter does not hurt quite as much.

 

I do wonder if you were very very unlucky if you could actually start the engine and seriously hurt yourself? 😀

 

( you can't but I think in very rare circumstance it is possible with a petrol engine, though it probably goes backwards)

 

..............Dave

[dmr]

2 hours ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

UPDATE, UPDATE, UPDATE,

Started from beginning of fault finding again.

1 starter battery removed, cleaned and sanded all contacts etc, battery dated new in August 2020, allowed to rest for 1 hr, volt test 12.6 volts

3 leisure batteries all removed, cleaned and sanded all contacts, allowed to rest for 1 hour , volt test 12.8, 12.8, 12.7, all replaced Sept 2020.

Put sizeable wide blade thick mortar chisel in starter motor hole, try to prise the flywheel in any direction.

NO MOVEMENT WHATSOVER FROM THE FLY WHEEL.

Remove rocker box cover to see any movement, 

Put a ratchet socket 15mm on one of the  3 crankcase nuts( there is no single big nut), STILL NO MOVEMENT, my ratchet moved a bit, then a bit more,

I've rounded the bolt, tried one more bolt, stopped before rounding another bolt.

Then I thought is there water in the piston / chamber. So took all 3 injectors out, 

Back to the fly wheel end with a bit more leverage. STILL NO MOVEMENT FROM THE FLYWHEEL  OR THE VALVES/ TAPPETS.

 

I believe its seized and the heads now gotta come off,

Over to the engineers at Streethay now, briefed  them on what I've done so far. They said they will sort it, one old boy there even mentioned he could do it with a vinegar mixture and ATF, leave it for 3 or 4 days, then tap the pistons with a bit of wood.

Leave it here we will sort it they said.

Fingers and toes crossed now for a small bill.

 

 

This is bodging of the first order but there is a chance it will work. Its assuming that the original seizing from overheating has not significantly scratched the bore, and the engine is now seized due to rusty sticky rings and this also has not significantly damaged the bores. With the head off and the engine unseized the Streathay man can have a look and make a decision. If you are really lucky and can maybe live with a slightly reduced compression and a whiff of blue smoke you might just be ok for a few more years.

 

I ran a mini with a huge scratch for many years but it did drink a fair bit of oil.

 

...............Dave

[Tony Brooks]

Pleased, you have given yourself a definitive diagnosis and hope it will turn out to be not too expensive.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

My outer pulley has a polyV so although tighter does not hurt quite as much.

 

I do wonder if you were very very unlucky if you could actually start the engine and seriously hurt yourself? 😀

 

( you can't but I think in very rare circumstance it is possible with a petrol engine, though it probably goes backwards)

 

..............Dave

I have the stop leaver back when I turn mine over, did it the other week to check the tappets, I move it very slowly.

[dmr]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have the stop leaver back when I turn mine over, did it the other week to check the tappets, I move it very slowly.

 

You would have to rotate the engine pretty damn quick to retain the compression and resulting heat in order to burn the diesel, hand start engines rely on decompression and a big flywheel to make this possible, but I still only turn mine with the "ignition" (run solenoid) off just in case I don't know my own strength 😀.

[Cheshire cat]

Interesting information guys. I've only tried to turn over a BMC C series engine using the crank shaft nut. It was possible but not easy which is just as well as the engine had just come back from a rebuild. 

 

I was obviously trying to rush it. 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

That is what I feared, a locked up engine accepting the starter dog but not turning over.

I hope that it is only piston/s seized in the bore/s and not a mechanical fail due to a crank or rod failure.

A rebore and new pistons is a lot of work but not seriously expensive on parts.

There must be  a good reason for this lockup, make sure you find what it was before spending lots of money on a repair.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Tracy D'arth

[dmr]

28 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

Interesting information guys. I've only tried to turn over a BMC C series engine using the crank shaft nut. It was possible but not easy which is just as well as the engine had just come back from a rebuild. 

 

I was obviously trying to rush it. 

 

 

 

After compression the next biggest force is ring friction (unless something has gone badly wrong) so the engine should turn easily a very small amount when the pistons are at TDC/BDC and get harder when the pistons are moving.

 

...............Dave

[Karen Lea Rainey]

I've read and watched videos of unseizing an engine by pouring a concoction of acetone and ATF fluid down the injector holes, leaving it for a few days and then trying to move the flywheel. It's mainly in the states and they use a liquid called miracle oil !!!, pb blaster or seafoam something or other.

The 'old boy' set me thinking there was something  in this using vinegar and ATF fluid.

Has anybody ever done this?

I believe you can also fill the whole engine up to the rim  with a similar liquid and when its covered all the pistons for a few days you let it drain and refill with normall oil.

Apparently it becomes very smokey for a bit but clears up.

It wouldn't tell me why the engine seized in the first place but I dont think I'll  ever learn the truth from the last owners.

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Is this a possible reason for the overheating?

When in bilge yesterday, bearing in mind I emptied 3 inch of water out of it 2 days before and got it completely  dry, I noticed the overflow from the pressure relief was on the calorifier was drippling/ not quite a trickle was emptying into the bulge when boats came past or the boat rocking due to movement on board.

As the calorifier is under the bed and just under the height of the engine, ( no visible water in the heat exchanger) it got me thinking that the prv is not sealing the valve.

This would be a sure fire way that eventually you run out of water if your water pump isnt permanently and you tank becomes empty.

The water tank is definitely empty yesterday as I tried washing my hands, not winterised just no water in the system.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Tony Brooks]

28 minutes ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Is this a possible reason for the overheating?

When in bilge yesterday, bearing in mind I emptied 3 inch of water out of it 2 days before and got it completely  dry, I noticed the overflow from the pressure relief was on the calorifier was drippling/ not quite a trickle was emptying into the bulge when boats came past or the boat rocking due to movement on board.

As the calorifier is under the bed and just under the height of the engine, ( no visible water in the heat exchanger) it got me thinking that the prv is not sealing the valve.

This would be a sure fire way that eventually you run out of water if your water pump isnt permanently and you tank becomes empty.

The water tank is definitely empty yesterday as I tried washing my hands, not winterised just no water in the system.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Nothing to do with the engine overheating, but will eventually drain your domestic water tank. Either the domestic water pump pressure is too high or the valve is faulty. With water in the tank and the pump on, try twisting the knob on the valve a few times to hopefully wash any scale off the seat.

 

I doubt that we will ever know why it overheated, but to investigate that we need to know exactly what cooling system you have. The red engine you showed is indirect raw water cooled with a wet exhaust, which is typical for a cruiser or yacht. Most narrowboats are tank/keel cooled with a dry exhaust and are a much simpler system, The former use two pumps, one of which should have a rubber impeller charged each year or so and a raw water strainer that is prone to blockages. The most likely causes of overheating in the latter are the owner simply not topping the system up, broken drive belt, a leak on a hose joint, a leaking water pump, a failed head gasket or on an old engine  a  leaking core plug. All those could apply to the indirect raw water system as well, plus a couple more.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[MtB]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I doubt that we will ever know why it overheated,

 

I don't think we know for a fact it overheated Tony - I think this is just an assumption albeit a reasonable one.

 

An engine that stops running purely due to overheating is by no means guaranteed to ever run again without a full rebuild. I'm not even sure what it is that makes a seriously overheating engine stop although I know from personal experience they do!  Is it high piston friction, or what? 

 

If the engine stopped due to no oil pressure the main and/or big end bearings have probably picked up and seized so no amount of acidic stuff poured into the bores will free it, as it isn't just piston rings rusted into the bores. Or if the camshaft or a valve spring broke and a valve hit a piston and bent a con rod.... 

 

But we don't even know for sure the engine seizing was the original breakdown, it could have been something else. All we know is the engine is seized now, which can happen to any engine left to sit for a year with water in the bores. 

 

My completely unsubstantiated guess though is the head gasket failed, most of the coolant got expelled and the engine overheated, residual coolant leaked into the bores and rusted them up. Hopefully neither the block nor the cylinder head has cracked. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I don't think we know for a fact it overheated Tony - I think this is just an assumption albeit a reasonable one.

 

An engine that stops running purely due to overheating is by no means guaranteed to ever run again without a full rebuild. I'm not even sure what it is that makes a seriously overheating engine stop although I know from personal experience they do!  Is it high piston friction, or what? 

 

If the engine stopped due to no oil pressure the main and/or big end bearings have probably picked up and seized so no amount of acidic stuff poured into the bores will free it, as it isn't just piston rings rusted into the bores. Or if the camshaft or a valve spring broke and a valve hit a piston and bent a con rod.... 

 

But we don't even know for sure the engine seizing was the original breakdown, it could have been something else. All we know is the engine is seized now, which can happen to any engine left to sit for a year with water in the bores. 

 

My completely unsubstantiated guess though is the head gasket failed, most of the coolant got expelled and the engine overheated, residual coolant leaked into the bores and rusted them up. Hopefully neither the block nor the cylinder head has cracked. 

 

 

I think the OP did ask about why engines overheat, and my reply was in that context.

 

I agree Mike. It is even possible something has gone amiss with the drive plate, so parts have jammed up in the housing. This is why I indicated that if the flywheel would not move, it might be worth taking the gearbox and adapter plate off to eliminate that potential cause.

 

One thing I am sure of is filling the engine with some concoction advised on the internet is a very bad idea. If the OP has the skills by all means take the head off and have a look at the bores, that would eliminate another potential cause but if there were no signs of rust it would imply a far more expensive problem. I can see nothing wrong with putting ATF and whatever down the bores if the head is off and trying to free the engine, but without a centre nut on the front pulley to get a good purchase to turn the engine would be difficult. If the gearbox was off, two flywheel bolts could be substituted for longer ones, so a lever could be put between them. I think access makes using a screwdriver on the flywheel teeth difficult

Edited August 13, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[BEngo]

Normally when an engine overheats and seizes it is because the cylinder gets too hot, so the oil film is destroyed.  Then the no longer cooled and lubricated piston gets too hot, expands (more than the iron cylinder) and sticks to the bore.  The alloy in the piston has a strong affinity for iron  so they stick together where they rub.  Bits then get torn out of the piston and eventually there is so much friction the piston stops being movable.   You may free things off when it is cooled, but the piston no longer fits the bore correctly and poor performance and high oil consumption usually result.

 

 

  In an overheat seizure the main and big end bearings may also get too hot and melt the bearing material but that usually results in greater clearances to  the bearings and mechanical damage to the crankshaft through metal to metal contact between the steel shells and the crank journals. By now if sounds like a bag of nails being shaken in a biscuit tin and most people will at least stop and investigate.  You have to really thrash most engines, and/or have an oil flow failure to seize the mains and big ends.

N

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Normally when an engine overheats and seizes it is because the cylinder gets too hot, so the oil film is destroyed.  Then the no longer cooled and lubricated piston gets too hot, expands (more than the iron cylinder) and sticks to the bore.  The alloy in the piston has a strong affinity for iron  so they stick together where they rub.  Bits then get torn out of the piston and eventually there is so much friction the piston stops being movable.   You may free things off when it is cooled, but the piston no longer fits the bore correctly and poor performance and high oil consumption usually result.

 

 

  In an overheat seizure the main and big end bearings may also get too hot and melt the bearing material but that usually results in greater clearances to  the bearings and mechanical damage to the crankshaft through metal to metal contact between the steel shells and the crank journals. By now if sounds like a bag of nails being shaken in a biscuit tin and most people will at least stop and investigate.  You have to really thrash most engines, and/or have an oil flow failure to seize the mains and big ends.

N

 

Agree with all of that. I suspect in the end a short motor would be the cheapest way of solving it.

[Karen Lea Rainey]

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Nothing to do with the engine overheating, but will eventually drain your domestic water tank. Either the domestic water pump pressure is too high or the valve is faulty. With water in the tank and the pump on, try twisting the knob on the valve a few times to hopefully wash any scale off the seat.

 

I doubt that we will ever know why it overheated, but to investigate that we need to know exactly what cooling system you have. The red engine you showed is indirect raw water cooled with a wet exhaust, which is typical for a cruiser or yacht. Most narrowboats are tank/keel cooled with a dry exhaust and are a much simpler system, The former use two pumps, one of which should have a rubber impeller charged each year or so and a raw water strainer that is prone to blockages. The most likely causes of overheating in the latter are the owner simply not topping the system up, broken drive belt, a leak on a hose joint, a leaking water pump, a failed head gasket or on an old engine  a  leaking core plug. All those could apply to the indirect raw water system as well, plus a couple more.

Hi Tony, it is definitely skin tank and I believe the same engine which is in survey reports from 2008 and 2016, I dont know what I was thinking the prv  was a probable reason, guess I was just looking for reasons for overheating. I now remember of course its 2 different water supplies.

I will have a good look all around the engine pipework  after this weekends work, including entry / exit to the calorifier and water pump etc.thanks again.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Hi Tony, it is definitely skin tank and I believe the same engine which is in survey reports from 2008 and 2016, I dont know what I was thinking the prv  was a probable reason, guess I was just looking for reasons for overheating. I now remember of course its 2 different water supplies.

I will have a good look all around the engine pipework  after this weekends work, including entry / exit to the calorifier and water pump etc.thanks again.

 

Please check that you do not have an additional brass water pump, it's not normal on skin thank cooled boats, but some use one when they bodge an indirect raw water cooled engine into a skin tank cooled boat.