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Beta Marine 28 starter motor removal problems


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Hi All, 

I have a beta marine 28 engine and I am trying to remove / replace  the starter motor.

There are just 2 bolts that hold it on, just like most other starter motors.

The problem is access of getting a  spanner for the inside nut removal.

It is incredibly tight to get a normal spanner to go over the actual bulk of the motor, I cant get any purchase on the nut( not even close) .

I'm thinking would an offset ratchet spanner fit, or is there a universal joint fitting with  an extension bar or similar, or is there a special tool to use to get at the nut.

 

If there isnt any solution for simpler removal, it'll mean I have to remove the heat exchanger and exhaust which seat directly above the starter motor.

 

Hoping one of you has had the problem in the past and enlighten me on the right path.

 

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Hi Tony, sorry no the starter motor has about a 2 inch gap between the starter and the heat exchanger, there is no access from the underside of the engine sump area. The best description it the starter sits under the heat exchanger with just enough room to put the flat of your hand through, leaving no room for a spanner to fit in at the angle needed to reach the nut.

Perhaps there is a boomerang shaped ratchet spanner that bends around the outer casing of the starter that is less than an inch wide !

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5 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Any chance with a socket and a long extension to beyond the end of the motor?

That is how I would attempt it but then we know about sockets and probably have "wobble" extensions and sockets in a variety of drive sizes

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Here is a picture of the situation, you can just about see the lower nut of the starter, I've removed that already.

The nut I cant get at is just behind  the casing( behind the 2 steel bars  that hold the casing together).

From the picture you can see that there is no access from underneath because of the sump and of course the solenoid  is also there to block further access. Hope this helps the thinking between us.

Please note this picture is a 35, not the 28, but the situ is the same.

beta35_he-1024x1024.jpg

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It's been sitting in damp for to long, the solenoid energises but the bendix is stuck solid, I've tried wooden hammer, rubber mallet and lump hammer to free it. I think that the teeth / pinion is possibly stuck on the fly wheel or its burred and stuck!

Turning the key gives gives a loud  chuck sound, and trying it several times just makes the starter motor go quite warm (after 5 or 6 times).

Looking at the picture on here of the 35, I'm now thinking your right, get the right length extension on a socket after removing the cables to allow access to the nut.

I ll try that tomorrow now. Thanks

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23 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Bear in mind its not an inertia bendix but pre-engaged pinion.  If its jammed on the flywheel it will not be possible to turn the engine by hand either. Is this the case?

Yes that's correct, tried moving the flywheel, it wont move more than an inch or so.

Couldn't  get a spanner on the front of engine, so got a large gripper vice thing on the drive shaft to find that out, put it in gear but only moves a couple of inches in either direction.

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40 minutes ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Yes that's correct, tried moving the flywheel, it wont move more than an inch or so.

Couldn't  get a spanner on the front of engine, so got a large gripper vice thing on the drive shaft to find that out, put it in gear but only moves a couple of inches in either direction.

Its not the starter gear locking it up then.

There is another problem.

Its a mechanical gearbox then?

Could the cylinder/s be full of water?  Is this a raw water cooled engine or skin tanks? Being red suggests a sea going engine not inland waterways.

How did all this start?  When did it last run?

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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I'm hoping it is just the starter, it's a prm 120 gearbox and skin tank cooling,

Only bought the boat yesterday, gotta bargain knowing the engine wasnt running. The couple that sold it me were away on it, it wouldn't start next morning and got towed in to marina. They gave up and didn't want the hassle of investigation /repair.

It was the first time the boat had moved in 2 years thanks to lockdown when they were away.

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33 minutes ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

I'm hoping it is just the starter, it's a prm 120 gearbox and skin tank cooling,

Only bought the boat yesterday, gotta bargain knowing the engine wasnt running. The couple that sold it me were away on it, it wouldn't start next morning and got towed in to marina. They gave up and didn't want the hassle of investigation /repair.

It was the first time the boat had moved in 2 years thanks to lockdown when they were away.

Its not the starter, something else is locking the engine, water in a cylinder from a failed head gasket, a foreign body in a cylinder, a dropped timing chain or it has seized the pistons in the bores due to severe overheating. Until you can get it to turn over completely by hand you will get nowhere.

 

PRM 120 is the larger mechanical gearbox,  a good unit.

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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7 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

It could be the water pump or alternator that has jammed. Try removing the drive belt and then see if the engine will turnover/start.

Will try this before further dismantling, this sounds  to simple to be the problem. Would a jammed water pump really stop the rotation of the crank, would there be enough grip from the belt to stop it moving.?

The loud clunk comes from the starter motor only, you can feel the shudder through the casing of it, it really does feel and sound to me like a stuck or broken pinion / teeth, by the sound of a loud slam/ whack/ thump /clunk.( I dont know quite how to describe it). It's much louder than a solenoid click on a normal problem motor.

 

?????? Could the  9 teeth cog on the starter have fell off or disengaged from the  starter motor and is currently being held by the fly wheel alone?

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Its not anything driven by the belt, it would slip. Its very unlikely the starter pinion. The crank is being prevented from turning by something more serious internally. If the story of the sellers is to be believed, the only thing that could happen to a stopped engine overnight is water seeping into one or more cylinders from the head or the gasket. But it would by now have partially at least run down into the sump into the oil.

 

Either you need an engineer to look or you will need to do some dismantling.  Where is the boat?

 

As a start I would remove the rocker box, turn the engine as much as you can and see if any of the valves move. This will rule out a dropped timing chain.

 

Then I would remove the heater plugs and see if it turns over.

 

If it still refuses to do a complete revolution its time to take off the head.

 

It is possible that there is something in the flywheel housing but I very much doubt it, a drive plate cannot fall apart on its own in the night!

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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I think the operative words here are "if the sellers are to be believed".  I suspect that there is much the OP has not been told.

 

I am not 100% sure, but I think it uses timing gears rather than a chain, so the wrong timing is less likely.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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36 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think the operative words here are "if the sellers are to be believed".  I suspect that there is much the OP has not been told.

 

I am not 100% sure, but I think it uses timing gears rather than a chain, so the wrong timing is less likely.

You may well be right Tony.  I have checked and they are gear driven cam engines. Well spotted.

 

Its certainly something more that switching it off one night and next morning it won't start but the OP seems to think I am talking from a rear orifice and it is a totally unknown starter motor fault.

I shall be very interested to know the cause if it ever gets diagnosed and published.

 

One possibility that has just struck me is a snapped crank. Rare but I have had it happen on a Rootes group engine many years ago. That would only turn over so far before locking up. Its certainly an odd one.

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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8 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You may well be right Tony.  Its certainly something more that switching it off one night and next morning it won't start but the OP seems to think I am talking from a rear orifice and it is a totally unknown starter motor fault.

I shall be very interested to know the cause if it ever gets diagnosed and published.

 

FWIW. I have been silent on this because  I could say no more that you had so little point in posting the same again.

 

I would want to get a tool on the crank pulley nut so I could assess how far the crankshaft moved. The movement of the shaft coupling could be back lash in the drive plate.

 

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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

FWIW. I have been silent on this because  I could say no more that you had so little point in posting the same again.

 

I would want to get a tool on the crank pulley nut so I could assess how far the crankshaft moved. The movement of the shaft coupling could be back lash in the drive plate.

 

Another good point Tony.    There is the reduction ratio of the gearbox to consider too. If they are getting say 10 degrees on the prop shaft that will be 20 degrees on the flywheel assuming a 2 to 1 box but the drive plate will absorb some of that. There was mention of turning the flywheel, but I don't see how as I think they are completely enclosed.

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Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Another good point Tony.    There is the reduction ratio of the gearbox to consider too. If they are getting say 10 degrees on the prop shaft that will be 20 degrees on the flywheel assuming a 2 to 1 box but the drive plate will absorb some of that. There was mention of turning the flywheel, but I don't see how as I think they are completely enclosed.

 

That is the problem, a lever on the flywheel teeth via the starter aperture would give an accurate idea of crank movement, but she has access difficulties getting the motor off.

 

It's been decades since I saw a new engine with a timing mark access plate for the flywheel, so I too don't see how she managed to turn the flywheel.

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2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its not anything driven by the belt, it would slip.

It happened on my wife's car after it hadn't been used for some weeks (having been fine before that). Starter motor giving a clunk and drawing a high current, and the crank pulley moving just a small amount as the starter was engaged. Absolutely no movement at all of the alternator or water pump pulleys. I could rock the crank pulley but not the alternator pulley. Water pump pulley was too inaccessible to try that. I couldn't slacken the alternator either, so in the end we got the garage to collect the car and sort it.

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UPDATE. UPDATE. UPDATE.

Got wobble extension bars lined up, under the (slipped to the side alternator) 12mm bolt 

Removed the starter motor, it looks ok, no worn teeth, springs ok, bench test says it spins ok.

Now, I turn the coupling drive shaft by putting a very large screwdriver between the bolts, put it in gear and its turns quite freely, it only turns one way, put it in reverse and do the same, again it turns without too much effort.

 

Now because the starter motor is off, I can touch the teeth on the flywheel.

 

I now expect the turning of the  drive shaft to turn the flywheel at the same time.  ITS NOT MOVING THE FLYWHEEL AT ALL.

Does this therefore mean that the gearbox is responsible for the problem and that the wacking sound was the starter bendix thumping into the flywheel instead of meshing the pinion , therefore unable to turn the crankshaft/ flywheel.

Could it be a drive plate / clutch problem, it sounds as though the gearbox is next to come out, but that is beyond me.

Thanks again for your inputs, They are excellent knowledge for which I am grateful.

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