Bit of advice for those with Victron Bluetooth devices

[frangar]

If you have a Bluetooth controlled victron device or indeed one from another make change the default access code….I could be having some right fun with the neighbouring boats electrical system right now….including locking them out of it. 
 

 

[hovrin]

Although many people don't realise or can't be bothered, this should be the first thing you do when setting up any wi-fi, network  or bluetooth device!

[Hudds Lad]

I thought the days of bluejacking, bluesnarfing & wardriving were over  

[frangar]

8 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

I thought the days of bluejacking, bluesnarfing & wardriving were over  

🤣🤣🤣 it seems other devices pop up in the victron app once in range….so it seemed rude to see if they had not changed the default PIN…what was interesting was it was quite a complex system and some devices had been renamed so I assume professionally installed. 

[Tony Brooks]

For crying out loud, apart from a very small cost and a little inconvenience, why can't the makers get it into their heads that any remote access opens their products up to interference. It's much harder to cause problems for the user if the only communication is via a non-web connected length of cable.

[nicknorman]

5 hours ago, frangar said:

If you have a Bluetooth controlled victron device or indeed one from another make change the default access code….I could be having some right fun with the neighbouring boats electrical system right now….including locking them out of it. 
 

Got a BMV712 recently. It is very good, and handy to be able to see everything on one’s phone when in range. I did think twice about using the boat’s name as the device name, makes it pretty obvious where the signal is coming from - as you say, everyone with the app can see the device name. But yes I did change the default password! And no it isn’t “password” nor the boat’s name!

[frangar]

12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

For crying out loud, apart from a very small cost and a little inconvenience, why can't the makers get it into their heads that any remote access opens their products up to interference. It's much harder to cause problems for the user if the only communication is via a non-web connected length of cable.

I rather like the Bluetooth connectivity. Makes monitoring/set up a breeze with the app. It’s a 20 sec job to change the pin during the install

[StephenA]

16 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

For crying out loud, apart from a very small cost and a little inconvenience, why can't the makers get it into their heads that any remote access opens their products up to interference. It's much harder to cause problems for the user if the only communication is via a non-web connected length of cable.

 

Like Nissan did with the mobile phone app for the Leaf - it used a unique identifier : it just happened to be the VIN, which of course is visible through the windscreen

[TheBiscuits]

43 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But yes I did change the default password! And no it isn’t “password” nor the boat’s name!

 

I'll go out on a limb and guess it's not 'vollies' either!

[nicknorman]

57 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I'll go out on a limb and guess it's not 'vollies' either!

… or could be double bluff!

[Iain_S]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I'll go out on a limb and guess it's not 'vollies' either!

 But might be "Effinvollies" ...

[Sea Dog]

14 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

For crying out loud, apart from a very small cost and a little inconvenience, why can't the makers get it into their heads that any remote access opens their products up to interference. It's much harder to cause problems for the user if the only communication is via a non-web connected length of cable.

No need to cry out loud Tony - Victron already did that. You don't have to buy their Bluetooth enabled 'smart' products (although I suspect they'll be one increasingly ubiquitous as time goes by).

 

It's not hard to make this stuff as secure as it needs be for its application though - and who is really going to stand on a towpath trying to crack a 6 digit PIN just to mess up someone's solar settings? Plus, it's much cheaper and a lot less faff to use your smart phone than to buy the expensive gubbins required to connect via a laptop.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Sea Dog said:

No need to cry out loud Tony - Victron already did that. You don't have to buy their Bluetooth enabled 'smart' products (although I suspect they'll be one increasingly ubiquitous as time goes by).

 

It's not hard to make this stuff as secure as it needs be for its application though - and who is really going to stand on a towpath trying to crack a 6 digit PIN just to mess up someone's solar settings? Plus, it's much cheaper and a lot less faff to use your smart phone than to buy the expensive gubbins required to connect via a laptop.

 

I bet the expense in the laptop gubbins comes in pure profit for the makers, how much does a generic USB cable cost?

 

On one hand we have the constant warnings about cybersecurity, and on the other hosts of manufacturers adding insecure communication technologies that require the user to jump through hoops to make them a little more secure. Dedicated physical wiring that is not part of a public network needs access to one of the devices to cause problems. Once a public network is involved the criminals have all the time in the world to probe devices and find ways in.

[IanD]

39 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I bet the expense in the laptop gubbins comes in pure profit for the makers, how much does a generic USB cable cost?

 

On one hand we have the constant warnings about cybersecurity, and on the other hosts of manufacturers adding insecure communication technologies that require the user to jump through hoops to make them a little more secure. Dedicated physical wiring that is not part of a public network needs access to one of the devices to cause problems. Once a public network is involved the criminals have all the time in the world to probe devices and find ways in.

But why should they bother? It's not as if them getting remote access to your MPPT controller via Bluetooth is going to let them empty your bank account and walk off with a pile of money...

 

Keeping your Wi-Fi onboard secure (just like at home) is a different matter, you probably have a laptop connected to it chock-full of things like online banking details so it could be a honeypot for crims... 😞

Edited August 11, 2021 by IanD

[Detling]

15 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

For crying out loud, apart from a very small cost and a little inconvenience, why can't the makers get it into their heads that any remote access opens their products up to interference. It's much harder to cause problems for the user if the only communication is via a non-web connected length of cable.

Same with domestic appliances, I have dishwasher that has Bluetooth the digital display worked well for a few months then decided to scramble the texts, and add weird characters, making it unreadable. The blue tooth no longer connects so a man has been summoned to replace the control unit. 2nd time in 6 months, the old dishwasher with a click knob was 12 years old with no problems. But it was the wrong colour for the new kitchen so SHMBO decided we needed a new one.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Detling said:

Same with domestic appliances, I have dishwasher that has Bluetooth the digital display worked well for a few months then decided to scramble the texts, and add weird characters, making it unreadable. The blue tooth no longer connects so a man has been summoned to replace the control unit. 2nd time in 6 months, the old dishwasher with a click knob was 12 years old with no problems. But it was the wrong colour for the new kitchen so SHMBO decided we needed a new one.

A failed control panel has nothing to do with Bluetooth though...

 

Modern electronics is pretty reliable, and the older-style stuff wasn't perfect either -- those rotary switches on things like dishwashers and ovens do wear out or fail, and are surprisingly expensive to replace even assuming you can get a spare. My 12 year old oven is suffering from exactly that problem, the switch would cost £70 but is unavailable, a new oven is over a grand. I previously had a similar dishwasher problem, and had to replace that too.

 

Stuff breaks down, always has done and always will do. Newer stuff tends to be less long-lived and robust because of the endless drive to make things cheaper, so corners are cut. If you want stuff built like it was in "the good old days" it would cost a lot more than it does today.

Edited August 11, 2021 by IanD

[1st ade]

17 hours ago, StephenA said:

 

Like Nissan did with the mobile phone app for the Leaf - it used a unique identifier : it just happened to be the VIN, which of course is visible through the windscreen

Still better than Airbus though - would anyone like to guess the default PIN for an Airbus 380?

[Tony Brooks]

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

A failed control panel has nothing to do with Bluetooth though...

 

Modern electronics is pretty reliable, and the older-style stuff wasn't perfect either -- those rotary switches on things like dishwashers and ovens do wear out or fail, and are surprisingly expensive to replace even assuming you can get a spare. My 12 year old oven is suffering from exactly that problem, the switch would cost £70 but is unavailable, a new oven is over a grand. I previously had a similar dishwasher problem, and had to replace that too.

 

Stuff breaks down, always has done and always will do. Newer stuff tends to be less long-lived and robust because of the endless drive to make things cheaper, so corners are cut. If you want stuff built like it was in "the good old days" it would cost a lot more than it does today.

 

Trouble is even acknowledged premium brands, Miele comes to mind, that cost more than most still insist in building machines that require a computer and dedicated software to interrogate and reset after a repair. No chance of an individual getting their hands on the program and data so they can charge what they like for a call-out, or the machine gets scrapped. Some even refuse to operate until the fault is cleared by the expensive engineer call out. Just what the consumer really needs with an intermittent fault like a poor connection somewhere, something fault codes are very poor at showing.

 

I agree that by and large electronic controls are more reliable and also allow manufacturers to add bells and whistles at no or little cost that makes many think it's a superior machine rather than an overcomplicated machine that is expensive to repair.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Trouble is even acknowledged premium brands, Miele comes to mind, that cost more than most still insist in building machines that require a computer and dedicated software to interrogate and reset after a repair. No chance of an individual getting their hands on the program and data so they can charge what they like for a call-out, or the machine gets scrapped. Some even refuse to operate until the fault is cleared by the expensive engineer call out. Just what the consumer really needs with an intermittent fault like a poor connection somewhere, something fault codes are very poor at showing.

 

I agree that by and large electronic controls are more reliable and also allow manufacturers to add bells and whistles at no or little cost that makes many think it's a superior machine rather than an overcomplicated machine that is expensive to repair.

Our Miele dishwasher failed twice within the (5 year?) guarantee period, needed a new main circuit board both times. Cost us nothing but I saw the invoice, just under £500 each time 😞

 

So even buying expensive kit -- Miele has one of the best reputations -- doesn't mean it won't break down, and the repair costs can be astronomical.

 

We -- or to be more accurate, my wife -- have managed to source replacement parts for many appliances over the years, it's far easier to find them than it used to be and you can usually find instructions online if needed.

 

Doesn't get round the "has to be analysed and reset by an expensive authorised engineer" for some things though, more things are going the way cars have. If you think that's bad, look up what John Deere are doing to farmers...

Edited August 11, 2021 by IanD

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, Detling said:

Same with domestic appliances, I have dishwasher that has Bluetooth the digital display worked well for a few months then decided to scramble the texts, and add weird characters, making it unreadable.

 

Remember all those domestic appliances that were going to stop working at the stroke of midnight on 31 December 1999? That was a damp squib!

[IanD]

29 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Remember all those domestic appliances that were going to stop working at the stroke of midnight on 31 December 1999? That was a damp squib!

And all those computers that kept on working too!!!

 

Do you think it might just possibly have been because thousands of people spent years working on rewriting software precisely so that disaster *didn't* happen?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45083650

[1st ade]

45 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Remember all those domestic appliances that were going to stop working at the stroke of midnight on 31 December 1999? That was a damp squib!

I was on call that night precisely for Y2K problems. I was down the pub but on soft drinks until about 2AM when I rang the office and (paraphrased) "You've not rung so I assume everything is OK - I'm having a beer". The on call allowance from 9PM to 2AM paid nicely for our next Holiday....

 

 

Which was neatly interrupted on 2nd March (a Monday) when the office rang to say that one particular expensive and bespoke IT system said it was the Monday the 3rd and what was all this leap year nonsense?

[David Mack]

Maybe for some computer systems. But I was sceptical when the 'experts' said domestic appliances would fail because, even though they didn't actually use the calendar date and clock time, their chips would fall over at the millennium. And my reasoning was that even if the chips would fall over when their internal clocks said the century changed, what was the chance that those chips would have had their internal clock/calendar set so that the chip 'millennium' coincided exactly with the actual millennium?  I imagine many were set to 1 January 1900 or whatever when the chips were made, or first powered up, meaning that the appliance chip would function fine for 100 years, with the appliance being scrapped for other reasons long before that.

[David Mack]

4 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

I was on call that night precisely for Y2K problems.

 

A colleague of mine spent the turn of the new millennium in hospital, although he was perfectly well. His wife was seriously ill and on a ventilator. He, along with family members of similar patients, had been trained how to manually ventilate the patients in the event that the hospital equipment should stop working on the stroke of midnight. Fortunately everything kept going and his wife recovered. But he did say it wasn't his best new year!

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

Our Miele dishwasher failed twice within the (5 year?) guarantee period, needed a new main circuit board both times. Cost us nothing but I saw the invoice, just under £500 each time 😞

 

So even buying expensive kit -- Miele has one of the best reputations -- doesn't mean it won't break down, and the repair costs can be astronomical.

 

We -- or to be more accurate, my wife -- have managed to source replacement parts for many appliances over the years, it's far easier to find them than it used to be and you can usually find instructions online if needed.

 

Doesn't get round the "has to be analysed and reset by an expensive authorised engineer" for some things though, more things are going the way cars have. If you think that's bad, look up what John Deere are doing to farmers...

 

At least with cars, international agreements ensure owners can get third party fault code readers and some that will clear the faults as well. My one for VAG vehicles tells me the suspect component in plain text, but will also do other makes and return a code. Appliance manufacturers should be forced to do the same, but won't while they can get away with call-outs costing hundreds of pounds.