Broken Down

[frangar]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Stephanie has not found me yet. So I will go on criticising and revealing their short comings.

It was the bloke that’s there….went a bit quiet when I reeled off actual events that had happened that I’d witnessed first hand…said they had all records destroyed in the fire etc. 

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Except that's not what's actually happened in Laurie's case...

I’d call that misdiagnosis pretty shoddy…plus the time taken to fix…unless it’s a particular esoteric engine/gearbox combo you’d expect RCR to have drive plates sitting on a shelf…it’s not like he was far from their head office by road. 

[matty40s]

35 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes, Laurie's experience might give one cause to question RCR's mechanical competence in not diagnosing the problem correctly first time (on the other hand we all make mistakes), but I'm not sure how it would make one distrust their business practices?

We had a local boat have to cut their holiday short this week due to a certain AA of the Waterways. Engine overheated and water spurting/steam coming out of header tank.

First bloke turns up, says, fan belt loose ...I've tightened the alternator up , should be ok for rest of week now but your sliding bracket is looking a bit in need of replacement soon... 

Topped header tank up without bleeding anything else and sent them on their way through Braunston tunnel. Overheated again.

 

 

 

You tell me how he tightened anything, as the bracket was non existent!!..dont carry spares as it was a Saturday.

Edited August 21, 2021 by matty40s

[matty40s]

So anyhow, on overheating down to Braunston, 2nd chap from same company comes out, and doesnt spot bracket. Bleeds some air out, tops up header tank, says good to go. Half an hour later overheating again.

Limp back home over next day, relying on assistance of other boats through locks so engine can stay off, they didn't want to call the company again as worried about having 2 calls in two days rather than the fact that the company hadnt fixed sod all.

Diagnosis, broken alternator bracket, split hose under air filter, calorifier coil never bled, skin tank full of crud and preventing circulation.

 

[frangar]

Just now, matty40s said:

So anyhow, on overheating down to Braunston, 2nd chap from same company comes out, and doesnt spot bracket. Bleeds some air out, tops up header tank, says good to go. Half an hour later overheating again.

Limp back home over next day, relying on assistance of other boats through locks so engine can stay off, they didn't want to call the company again as worried about having 2 calls in two days rather than the fact that the company hadnt fixed sod all.

Diagnosis, broken alternator bracket, split hose under air filter, calorifier coil never bled, skin tank full of crud and preventing circulation.

 

It seems any actual spannering and thought process beyond major component replacement is beyond them. All the engineers can’t be that incompetent so it has to come from higher up. 

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

So anyhow, on overheating down to Braunston, 2nd chap from same company comes out, and doesnt spot bracket. Bleeds some air out, tops up header tank, says good to go. Half an hour later overheating again.

Limp back home over next day, relying on assistance of other boats through locks so engine can stay off, they didn't want to call the company again as worried about having 2 calls in two days rather than the fact that the company hadnt fixed sod all.

Diagnosis, broken alternator bracket, split hose under air filter, calorifier coil never bled, skin tank full of crud and preventing circulation.

 

Sounds like typical unsuccessful service from them. I hope that continually overheating their engine did no lasting damage. 

[Tony Brooks]

I have no wish to decry or defend RCR but I have been thinking about how I would handle the situation and I am not so sure there are not so many variables to make it hard to judge.

 

If I was the call-out chap, my first step would be to question the boater and try to establish what was going on before, during and as the failure occurred. At the same time, I would be assessing if the engine would still be runnable for battery charging if I took the gearbox off. If it required the rear engine feet to be removed as on some BMC marinisation flywheel housings, then taking the gearbox off would immobilise the engine so probably not a good idea if a new drive plate was not to hand.

 

Similarly, if there was no indication from the boater that there were noises consistent with drive plate failure beforehand, it would add another level of decisions.

 

If the box could come off without disabling the engine then I agree it should have been taken off at the first visit, but if not or if what the customer said suggested a gearbox failure then things are far from clear. I am not sure how typical gearbox failures (usually clutches) can be confused with drive plate failure (sudden loss of drive with noise out f gear in some cases) but it all  depends on what the customer says and I know from experience here and elsewhere customers can make the symptoms they tell you about fit their own diagnosis so I would always take any statements the boater makes with a degree of scepticism unless confirmed by observations or other symptoms.

 

I would also suggest that modern training methods and time scales does little to  build good diagnostic skills.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have no wish to decry or defend RCR but I have been thinking about how I would handle the situation and I am not so sure there are not so many variables to make it hard to judge.

 

If I was the call-out chap, my first step would be to question the boater and try to establish what was going on before, during and as the failure occurred. At the same time, I would be assessing if the engine would still be runnable for battery charging if I took the gearbox off. If it required the rear engine feet to be removed as on some BMC marinisation flywheel housings, then taking the gearbox off would immobilise the engine so probably not a good idea if a new drive plate was not to hand.

 

Similarly, if there was no indication from the boater that there were noises consistent with drive plate failure beforehand, it would add another level of decisions.

 

If the box could come off without disabling the engine then I agree it should have been taken off at the first visit, but if not or if what the customer said suggested a gearbox failure then things are far from clear. I am not sure how typical gearbox failures (usually clutches) can be confused with drive plate failure (sudden loss of drive with noise out f gear in some cases) but it all  depends on what the customer says and I know from experience here and elsewhere customers can make the symptoms they tell you about fit their own diagnosis so I would always take any statements the boater makes with a degree of scepticism unless confirmed by observations or other symptoms.

 

I would also suggest that modern training methods and time scales does little to  build good diagnostic skills.

 

Lots of points raised here, all of which rhyme with my own business of domestic gas boiler fixing.

 

The biggest point is where Tony says "If I were the call out chap", which is the first point most of the RCR critics completely miss. Tony would NEVER be the RCR call out chap as competent technicians don't need to work for firms like RCR, their reputation precedes them and they have plenty of work on their own account without having to subcontract to insurance companies. The same happens in the world of boiler-fixing, the less capable technicians all gravitate to working for insurance firms as there, they get shielded from the consequences of their own incompetence. "Yes Sir, that engineer should have realised the alternator bracket was broken, now he no longer works for the company" is a common lie fed to the dissatisfied customer and is code for "He is the only bloke we had in the area and sending a known muppet is still better than never turning up."

 

Secondly and a related point, is Laurie says he engaged two other firms neither of whom turned up. At least with RCR they "owned" the problem and fixed it, even if their muppet took five days to do it due to initial misdiagnosis. The degree of certainty that RCR provide, even if they charged Laurie for a gearbox he didn't need, was arguably preferable to CLARRIE remaining stranded on the towpath indefinitely whilst Laurie got let down by independent engineer after independent engineer. 

 

In my own business it is commonplace for me to be told after fixing sometimes quite trivial faults, that I was forth or fifth engineer in, with all the others saying it could not be fixed and a new boiler required. It's really quite depressing how competent technicians seem to to be so outnumbered by the incompetent. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

23 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

snip

 

In my own business it is commonplace for me to be told after fixing sometimes quite trivial faults, that I was forth or fifth engineer in, with all the others saying it could not be fixed and a new boiler required. It's really quite depressing how competent technicians seem to to be so outnumbered by the incompetent. 

 

 

 

I strongly suspect that its down to the lack of training in the basic principles since NVQs and shortened training times were brought in. I found it very difficult to do any sensible diagnosis unless I had a model in my head of how something worked, and that required lots of theory learning. I am not talking about Maths, English, IT, and Physics apart from where it is needed to aid understanding and modelling the principles. In latter years, I found it impossible to find sufficient information about how new developments  work. That is why I migrated to inland marine work - I understood the technology, but now I find even that is getting beyond me.

 

If you don't understand the basic theory, you are forced to fall back on experience and that, without understanding, is a very costly thing. We get the situation where parts get changed or actions taken because that was what was wrong last time similar symptoms occurred. Now, back to the base of the topic, what would have been the reaction if the chap had initially said it's the drive plate, I know which one it is and need to order it. Two days later they turn up and find the drive plate serviceable but a faulty gearbox?

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, frangar said:

I would have thought a drive plate would have been the first thing they’d check…if it was the gearbox it would need to come out…so remove box…find broken drive plate…surmise it’s that..fit new drive plate…refit box….off you go… If it turns out to be the box…unlikely once you’ve found the broken plate…it means it’s only cost a hour or so extra in time to remove the box again to fit a new one. If the drive plate was ok then think about it being the box. 
 

Just seems a bizarre way of diagnosing a fault to my mind once you have someone on site. I also assume they learn from customer call outs so know drive plates are a thing which breaks more often than a gearbox. 
 

I asked my insurance company if I could have a reduction in premium as apparently I now get retainer membership included…but they weren’t obliging. 

Not RCR but when my gearbox did fail the fitter said, well obviously you will want a new drive plate while its in bits so got a new box and plate at the same time. BTW the plate was on its last legs when the box came off. So if bringing a new box why not bring the plate as well and all bases covered.

[StephenA]

21 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Not RCR but when my gearbox did fail the fitter said, well obviously you will want a new drive plate while its in bits so got a new box and plate at the same time. BTW the plate was on its last legs when the box came off. So if bringing a new box why not bring the plate as well and all bases covered.

 

When our last gearbox got to the end of its life we replaced the drive plate whilst we had the gearbox off the bell housing.

 

The odd thing is that the clutch plate we had, and the one we replaced it with seem to have a "fail" position in that if the "springs" fail the two plates do have bits that hit against each other.

 

The first time we lost a drive plate we heard the springs bouncing round the bell housing as they sprung out of the plate.

[Tony Brooks]

37 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

When our last gearbox got to the end of its life we replaced the drive plate whilst we had the gearbox off the bell housing.

 

The odd thing is that the clutch plate we had, and the one we replaced it with seem to have a "fail" position in that if the "springs" fail the two plates do have bits that hit against each other.

 

The first time we lost a drive plate we heard the springs bouncing round the bell housing as they sprung out of the plate.

 

1. Yes, the rivets that hold the two outer parts together, but given time they wear through, and the whole lot falls apart. Luckily, that type with metal springs get noisy.

 

2. Not on a modern one using plastic or rubber in place of springs, but they should get noisy when the fail-safe parts start making contacts.

[Chris Lowe]

I wonder why does @Laurie Booth boat keep breaking drive plates?

[Tracy D'arth]

44 minutes ago, buccaneer66 said:

I wonder why does @Laurie Booth boat keep breaking drive plates?

Rubbish spring clutch type plates?

Engine tickover too low?

Binding on the splines end loading the plate?

Some Beta housings were machined off centre.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Rubbish spring clutch type plates?

 

^^^ This ^^^

[Laurie Booth]

18 hours ago, buccaneer66 said:

I wonder why does @Laurie Booth boat keep breaking drive plates?

2nd drive plate in 7 years, I looked up when the last one was replaced. Cost from RCRfor the repair £355.00 inc VAT.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, Laurie Booth said:

2nd drive plate in 7 years, I looked up when the last one was replaced. Cost from RCRfor the repair £355.00 inc VAT.

What! 

Is that after your membership fee?  I did not know that you could buy diamond studded platinum drive plates. A triple cushion plate for say a BMC or a Lister LPW is much less than that from R&D.

[Mad Harold]

On 16/08/2021 at 09:32, Tony Brooks said:

 

I would never assume a Hurth or Hurth style ZF box to be a good one, new or rebuilt. I would happily reject a boat if it had a Hurth gearbox.

If I had read yours and Tracy D arths opinion on Hurth gearboxes,I wouldn't have bought the boat I did.BMC 1500 with Hurth gearbox.Don't know the hours it had done before I bought it,but I did some 500 hours with no trouble before I sold it.The next owner did similar hours before he sold it,and the present owner  is chugging around occasionaly.

Maybe Hurth did make a reliable gearbox on odd occasions.?

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Mad Harold said:

If I had read yours and Tracy D arths opinion on Hurth gearboxes,I wouldn't have bought the boat I did.BMC 1500 with Hurth gearbox.Don't know the hours it had done before I bought it,but I did some 500 hours with no trouble before I sold it.The next owner did similar hours before he sold it,and the present owner  is chugging around occasionaly.

Maybe Hurth did make a reliable gearbox on odd occasions.?

 

Or as they made a range of boxes, perhaps yours was overspecified for its duty. I have long thought that the "problem" might be that builders and marinisers fitted boxes that were marginal for the duty cycle, and also the Hurth specs may have been marginal.

[StephenA]

17 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Or as they made a range of boxes, perhaps yours was overspecified for its duty. I have long thought that the "problem" might be that builders and marinisers fitted boxes that were marginal for the duty cycle, and also the Hurth specs may have been marginal.

 

We're on our third Hurth box since we had the boat built - engine was second hand with a Hurth box on when we got in in 1985. Its always been the clutch pack that has started slipping. We were regularly doing several hundred miles a year on a mix of waterways including tidal runs like Cromwell to Keadby and the Thames.  But I'm pretty sure we've been running an overspecced  box for the BMC 1.5

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, StephenA said:

 

We're on our third Hurth box since we had the boat built - engine was second hand with a Hurth box on when we got in in 1985. Its always been the clutch pack that has started slipping. We were regularly doing several hundred miles a year on a mix of waterways including tidal runs like Cromwell to Keadby and the Thames.  But I'm pretty sure we've been running an overspecced  box for the BMC 1.5

 

Yes, you may be in respect of what Hurth say/said. Others here have suggested that canal use is more akin to commercial use, and commercial use always seem to demand a higher spec box.

[David Mack]

First replacement with like-for-like I can understand. Not so sure I would have done it a second time when more robust gearboxes are available.

So what will you do if No. 3 fails?

[Laurie Booth]

22 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

What! 

Is that after your membership fee?  I did not know that you could buy diamond studded platinum drive plates. A triple cushion plate for say a BMC or a Lister LPW is much less than that from R&D.

How much should I have paid for the work that was carried out on Clarrie?

[MtB]

21 minutes ago, Laurie Booth said:

How much should I have paid for the work that was carried out on Clarrie?

 

Nothing surely, I'd have expected, given you were in RCR.

 

What are the terms of your contract with them?

[enigmatic]

On 16/08/2021 at 09:43, MtB said:

 

I suspect they won't be refurbished but simply second hand and repaired. 

 

Given the diverse nature of transmission failures, and the limited range of gearboxes commonly fitted in boats, and the keen-ness of RCR members to get their breakdowns fixed, I'd say their policy is to keep a stock of repaired boxes on the shelf. So whenever someone calls with any sort of transmission failure, their standard response is to condemn the box and swap it for a repaired one. This way they know how long it will take and the customer gets sent on their way ASAP then the supposed duff box gets taken to the workshop, tested without ny time pressure, fixed if necessary, painted and put on the shelf ready for the next call. 

 

This would explain why RCR always seem to supply a "new" gearbox rather than visit the boat, diagnose the fault, order parts, wait for them to arrive, go back to the boat, dismantle the box, fix, it, and hope their local bod was right in his diagnosis. 

 

 

I'd have thought this until it turned out they didn't have the parts on the shelf...

 

They condemned my gearbox on the basis of some pretty simple diagnostic checks I'd already done. Two weeks later I have no gearbox, and no date for a repair, having accepted Canal Contracting's markup on the retail price of the box because I assumed at least they'd source it quickly and efficiently. It's a PRM150D2, not exactly a niche type.

(I condemned my gearbox after doing the slightly more complex diagnostic check I wanted their engineer to do, finding out that probably wasn't the problem, and damaging it further attempting to reassemble ☹️)

 

The cynic in me wonders if they'd been quite as quick to propose full replacement if I'd been under their parts cover, and whether somebody else has to have a gearbox condemned before I get mine....

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by enigmatic

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I'd have thought this until it turned out they didn't have the parts on the shelf...

 

They condemned my gearbox on the basis of some pretty simple diagnostic checks I'd already done. Two weeks later I have no gearbox, and no date for a repair, having accepted Canal Contracting's markup on the retail price of the box because I assumed at least they'd source it quickly and efficiently. It's a PRM150D2, not exactly a niche type.

(I condemned my gearbox after doing the slightly more complex diagnostic check I wanted their engineer to do, finding out that wasn't the problem, and damaging it further attempting to reassemble ☹️)

 

The cynic in me wonders if they'd been quite as quick to propose full replacement if I'd been under their parts cover, and whether somebody else has to have a gearbox condemned before I get mine....

 

 

 

Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Are you saying that River Canal Rescue are handling this breakdown?

A PRM 150D2 box should be easy to source, try Calcutt, (£1105),   ASAP,(£1202)      Midland Chandlers or even PRM directly.