Mel Good Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Hi, I am completely new to boating so I do hope this is the correct spot for this question. We have literally just bought a boat (Broom Commander 35 a la 1978, sliding roof) and the windows are not looking great. Now naively I went searching for new boat windows last night on google and stepped away from the computer in horror at the price. So now my question is this - should I just service the ones I have. Take them off, give them a good clean, check for any water damage around the frames and add new rubbers? All suggestions greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy D'arth Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, Mel Good said: Hi, I am completely new to boating so I do hope this is the correct spot for this question. We have literally just bought a boat (Broom Commander 35 a la 1978, sliding roof) and the windows are not looking great. Now naively I went searching for new boat windows last night on google and stepped away from the computer in horror at the price. So now my question is this - should I just service the ones I have. Take them off, give them a good clean, check for any water damage around the frames and add new rubbers? All suggestions greatly appreciated. Probably the only way is to refurbish, window makers are a come and go lot, you may not find the original makers. Seals Direct will likely find you new rubbers but removing them and disassembling is not for the faint hearted. Looks to be a nice boat, enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Seals Plus Direct can probably supply the rubbers you would need, but to fit them you will almost certainly have to dismantle the frame. I would not advise that you try that unless good at DIY and freeing stuck screws/drilling out pop-rivets. Before you contemplate that, make sure that any leaks are between glass and the frame and are not either condensation running down or leaks between the frame and the cabin side. If there are leaks between the glass and frame the talk to Eagle Boat Windows who will refurbish them. If the leak is between the frame and cabin side then by all means take the window out, make good and refit with new sealant - either self-adhesive closed cell foam strip or butyl rubber strip sold for the job. Avoid silicon like the plague. Your photo seems to show the start of condensation on the windows, and it will only get worse as the weather cools down. Think about secondary double glazing using perspex sheet or for a trial the thin film and adhesive tape type the likes of Wilko supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Boat windows are awkward things, replacing them is shockingly expensive but there are only three components in a window, the frame, usually aluminium, the glass and the rubber seal. As Tracy D'Arth says, taking them apart is a sod of a job so just spend time cleaning them. You do have an advantage over those of us with steel boats though and that is that you will not have rust eating away beneath the frame and causing big problems. If you have to replace the screws that hold them in use stainless screws and the same holes. Good luck, boat stuff is a learning curve and by the time you have learn't half of it there is nothing that you can't tackle, houses are dead easy, cars a piece of cake and if that Elon Musk bloke wants a space capsule built that'll be dead easy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Good Posted August 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 23 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: Seals Plus Direct can probably supply the rubbers you would need, but to fit them you will almost certainly have to dismantle the frame. I would not advise that you try that unless good at DIY and freeing stuck screws/drilling out pop-rivets. Before you contemplate that, make sure that any leaks are between glass and the frame and are not either condensation running down or leaks between the frame and the cabin side. If there are leaks between the glass and frame the talk to Eagle Boat Windows who will refurbish them. If the leak is between the frame and cabin side then by all means take the window out, make good and refit with new sealant - either self-adhesive closed cell foam strip or butyl rubber strip sold for the job. Avoid silicon like the plague. Your photo seems to show the start of condensation on the windows, and it will only get worse as the weather cools down. Think about secondary double glazing using perspex sheet or for a trial the thin film and adhesive tape type the likes of Wilko supply. Thankfully I am pretty handy and thankfully can call on some others to help. It seems like a mammoth task as all of the windows are in need of some TLC. You can see that the rubber has really badly degraded in some parts so I'm not sure I have a choice but to take them out. Those photos were taken yesterday when the rain did not stop falling but I guess that's a good indication of what's going on. About to google secondary double glazing using perspex sheet as I can't quite picture it 8 minutes ago, Bee said: Boat windows are awkward things, replacing them is shockingly expensive but there are only three components in a window, the frame, usually aluminium, the glass and the rubber seal. As Tracy D'Arth says, taking them apart is a sod of a job so just spend time cleaning them. You do have an advantage over those of us with steel boats though and that is that you will not have rust eating away beneath the frame and causing big problems. If you have to replace the screws that hold them in use stainless screws and the same holes. Good luck, boat stuff is a learning curve and by the time you have learn't half of it there is nothing that you can't tackle, houses are dead easy, cars a piece of cake and if that Elon Musk bloke wants a space capsule built that'll be dead easy too. Thanks - I would prefer to give them a clean but there is clearly some problem areas which I won't be able to leave alone - can't help myself 31 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said: Probably the only way is to refurbish, window makers are a come and go lot, you may not find the original makers. Seals Direct will likely find you new rubbers but removing them and disassembling is not for the faint hearted. Looks to be a nice boat, enjoy! Thanks - seems like it's going to be a steep learning curve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Just now, Mel Good said: Thankfully I am pretty handy and thankfully can call on some others to help. It seems like a mammoth task as all of the windows are in need of some TLC. You can see that the rubber has really badly degraded in some parts so I'm not sure I have a choice but to take them out. Those photos were taken yesterday when the rain did not stop falling but I guess that's a good indication of what's going on. About to google secondary double glazing using perspex sheet as I can't quite picture it No, I can't see badly degraded rubber in the photos. The rubbers between glass and frame will perish, go hard and look moth-eaten where it stands clear of the frame, but usually the rubber doing the actual sealing is still doing its job and in fair condition. I would almost take a craft knife to the manky bits and cut it flush with the fame so it looks better. This is why I said check where any leaks are. Get a sheet of perspex cut to size and simply screw it to the wooden frame inside the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Good Posted August 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said: No, I can't see badly degraded rubber in the photos. The rubbers between glass and frame will perish, go hard and look moth-eaten where it stands clear of the frame, but usually the rubber doing the actual sealing is still doing its job and in fair condition. I would almost take a craft knife to the manky bits and cut it flush with the fame so it looks better. This is why I said check where any leaks are. Get a sheet of perspex cut to size and simply screw it to the wooden frame inside the boat. ah interesting - I will definitely check that out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 And as there is no expanding rust to worry about if there are leaks between glass and frame, would rather try Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure before trying to dismantle the frame. (No, it's not a joke, its areal product). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebotco Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 The aluminium frames look to me to be in basically good condition. Some fine grade wire wool and soapy water will probably bring them up a treat. The seals may not be as bad as you think. On mine, the nasty bits turned out to be largely surface growth of moss/lichen etc, and cleaned up pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Good Posted August 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: And as there is no expanding rust to worry about if there are leaks between glass and frame, would rather try Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure before trying to dismantle the frame. (No, it's not a joke, its areal product). Just ordering a bucket or two of that now - thanks for the tip 3 minutes ago, Rebotco said: The aluminium frames look to me to be in basically good condition. Some fine grade wire wool and soapy water will probably bring them up a treat. The seals may not be as bad as you think. On mine, the nasty bits turned out to be largely surface growth of moss/lichen etc, and cleaned up pretty well. Ok that puts my mind at ease that nobody is looking at these windows in horror! Best get scrubbing so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Cpt. Tolley's is not needed in bucket loads, and it won't work if there is not a leak. It comes in a little plastic squeeze thing with a small nozzle. Once you have identified a leak, you wait for it to dry out and then apply a little of the liquid to that area. It will normally seep into the leak point. You wait for it to dry and apply more and repeat until it stops not seeping into the leak. It is probably just PVA in water, with something to lower its surface tension to help it run into cracks. So as it dries, it seals the leak. On your boat it will probably be a long term repair, especially f it is leaking between the frame and the glass but is likely to wk between the frame and the GRP hull side. For steel boat owners - it will never be along term repair between frame and cabin side because rust will keep on forcing the frame away from the cabin side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Harold Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Dismantling window frames to replace seals is has been noted and from my own experience,is a pig of a job. The screws holding the frame together will nearly all need drilling out.Straightforward if they are cross head,but if like mine slotted head,they are a sod to get the drill bit centred and if the bit slips off centre it will damage the frame. Removing the frame and re-sealing to the boat is straightforward,but stripping and re-sealing the glass is not. Try trickling the Tolleys,between the seal and glass,it might work,I tried it but it didn't. Check that drain holes or slots in the bottom of the frame are clear.On my boat,there is an alloy strip about 2"wide glued to the inside bottom frame,and prevents any drips inside while any water ingress drains out. I have had to accept that water will get into the inside by capilliary action I think,but if there is a good passage out and a strip on the bottom frame,it shouldn't drip over your bedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Good Posted August 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: Cpt. Tolley's is not needed in bucket loads, and it won't work if there is not a leak. It comes in a little plastic squeeze thing with a small nozzle. Once you have identified a leak, you wait for it to dry out and then apply a little of the liquid to that area. It will normally seep into the leak point. You wait for it to dry and apply more and repeat until it stops not seeping into the leak. It is probably just PVA in water, with something to lower its surface tension to help it run into cracks. So as it dries, it seals the leak. On your boat it will probably be a long term repair, especially f it is leaking between the frame and the glass but is likely to wk between the frame and the GRP hull side. For steel boat owners - it will never be along term repair between frame and cabin side because rust will keep on forcing the frame away from the cabin side. I might have got a bit excited about Cpt Tolley but after watching the youtube clip about it, it appears to be good stuff. Initially we were looking at a steel boat but went for this one as it seemed like a better layout for our family. I sure am learning a lot today - thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacchus Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Hi @Mel Good - just to show solidarity, I am also in the process of buying a boat -- funnily enough also a Broom, slightly smaller than yours -- and one of the jobs that I know has to be done is resealing at least one of the windows... It is a little disheartening to hear it described by so many above as "a pig" of a job, but c'est la vie. I like a challenge... (not as much as I like an easy ride, but a challenge is okay 🙂), We'll have to compare notes when I get the boat home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Good Posted August 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 well it's good to know someone else is in the same boat (I apologise hehe) - am definitely on for comparing notes 13 minutes ago, Mad Harold said: Dismantling window frames to replace seals is has been noted and from my own experience,is a pig of a job. The screws holding the frame together will nearly all need drilling out.Straightforward if they are cross head,but if like mine slotted head,they are a sod to get the drill bit centred and if the bit slips off centre it will damage the frame. Removing the frame and re-sealing to the boat is straightforward,but stripping and re-sealing the glass is not. Try trickling the Tolleys,between the seal and glass,it might work,I tried it but it didn't. Check that drain holes or slots in the bottom of the frame are clear.On my boat,there is an alloy strip about 2"wide glued to the inside bottom frame,and prevents any drips inside while any water ingress drains out. I have had to accept that water will get into the inside by capilliary action I think,but if there is a good passage out and a strip on the bottom frame,it shouldn't drip over your bedding. Clearly I underestimated what a big job dismantling the window frames is. Just thought it would be an easy way to really see what's under the frames, add new rubbers...etc I have quickly moved away from that idea. there are two leaking points that we've spotted so far - ironically it was too wet and we had the kids with us so we couldn't have a good look to see exactly where the leaks were coming from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Harold Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Mel Good and Bacchus,if you google "Norman Owners Forum" there is an excellent post in the section titled "Problem Page"describing dismantling and re-sealing windows on grp boats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Mel Good said: Thanks - seems like it's going to be a steep learning curve I can see you are a master of the understatement. The cheap and quick solution is to sling a tarpaulin over the whole boat. No doubt you've noticed this on other boats, now you know why!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard10002 Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 The Freerange Sailing YouTube channel has a comprehensive refit of their 50 year old fibreglass sailing yacht from episode 142 onwards. In one or more of them, they cover removing and refitting their windows. I can’t find the actual episodes right now, but they are worth finding because he has great attention to detail, and has an excellent way of explaining things to the layman. I think there may be 28 episodes on the refit and, if you watched every one if them, in order to find the window refit, you would learn a lot about repairing and maintaining a fibreglass boat, so the time wouldn’t be wasted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 I want to come back to this because some of the posts are not very specific in their context. As I said in my first reply, the OP needs to find out exactly where the windows are leaking - if they really are. Removing the whole frame and glass intact and resealing is not a that difficult job and should be within the scope of any competent DIYer. This is needed when the leak is between cabin side and frame. If the "leak" is really condensation running down the window, then you need to make sure the drains that many aluminium window frames have between the inner channel and the outside are free. They often get filled with mossy stuff, and occasionally the window glass falls down and blocks them. This should also be an easy DIY job and does not mean resealing. (As someone posted above). The drains will not have any effect on condensation forming on the inside of the frame and running down onto the surround. This again is not a leak. The pig of a job is when the leak is between the glass and the frame, but that type of leak is not very common, despite what the rubber seal that is exposed to the sun and air may look like. Until prove wrong, I do not expect the OP's windows are leaking in this way. Before even thinking about what may need to be done, it is best to ensure you know that you actually have a leak (and it's not condensation) and where the leak really is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Good Posted August 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said: I want to come back to this because some of the posts are not very specific in their context. As I said in my first reply, the OP needs to find out exactly where the windows are leaking - if they really are. Removing the whole frame and glass intact and resealing is not a that difficult job and should be within the scope of any competent DIYer. This is needed when the leak is between cabin side and frame. If the "leak" is really condensation running down the window, then you need to make sure the drains that many aluminium window frames have between the inner channel and the outside are free. They often get filled with mossy stuff, and occasionally the window glass falls down and blocks them. This should also be an easy DIY job and does not mean resealing. (As someone posted above). The drains will not have any effect on condensation forming on the inside of the frame and running down onto the surround. This again is not a leak. The pig of a job is when the leak is between the glass and the frame, but that type of leak is not very common, despite what the rubber seal that is exposed to the sun and air may look like. Until prove wrong, I do not expect the OP's windows are leaking in this way. Before even thinking about what may need to be done, it is best to ensure you know that you actually have a leak (and it's not condensation) and where the leak really is. Thanks @Tony Brooks I appreciate the clarification especially as I am learning. I will be meeting a mechanic on the 14th and all of this information will help me understand what I want to review and no doubt help me understand what he is talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 (edited) If you are going to use sealant try a small amount of this after cleaning the suspect area.. Put a bit on screw threads too. Clean off excess sealant with a bit of white spirit on a cloth. Make sure you're wearing latex or nitrile gloves. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0012RT1M8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_8SNJM3A7KBG5X8C0EKWX?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 Edited August 3, 2021 by blackrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, blackrose said: If you are going to use sealant try a small amount of this after cleaning the suspect area.. Put a bit on screw threads too. Clean off excess sealant with a bit of white spirit on a cloth. Make sure you're wearing latex or nitrile gloves. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0012RT1M8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_8SNJM3A7KBG5X8C0EKWX?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 Just to be clear - are you suggesting this for trying to stop a leak between glass and frame or between frame and cabin side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Lowe Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Back in the day I used to live in one of those old fashioned metal mobile homes with the aluminium window frames If it is just condensation there was a product available that was basically just a wick and you laid along the bottom of the window with the end hanging outside, it collected the water and dripped it outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Good Posted August 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 4 hours ago, buccaneer66 said: Back in the day I used to live in one of those old fashioned metal mobile homes with the aluminium window frames If it is just condensation there was a product available that was basically just a wick and you laid along the bottom of the window with the end hanging outside, it collected the water and dripped it outside. now that sounds positively simple - you don't happen to know the name of them? or where to get them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philjw Posted August 4, 2021 Report Share Posted August 4, 2021 7 hours ago, Mel Good said: now that sounds positively simple - you don't happen to know the name of them? or where to get them? Maybe this? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kontrol-KONTROL-Drip-Strip/dp/B006ZKGQ1G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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