E10 petrol in generators (and garden equipment)

[Momac]

I had some of last years petrol which I put in my lawnmower but the  lawnmower did not like it.

I bought some super unleaded  and the mower now starts more easily and runs more evenly  . For the small amount of fuel the mower uses the cost of the super unleaded  is insignificant.

 

I have an outboard made in 1966. It also likes the super unleaded.

 

There is some special long life fuel you can buy but it is not cheap

https://aspenfuel.co.uk/

 

.

 

 

 

[David Schweizer]

My VW car has a 1.4 high performance twin turbo engine, which runs ok with standard petol, but has a tendancy to pink when fully laden and ascending steep hills from a slow speed start. I dread to think how it will perform with this new E10 petrol, even though the official VW charts suggest that my car will run on it.  When I first identified the problem with my car pinking, my garage suggested using Super Unleaded petrol instead of standard petrol, and it has certainly reduced the pinking significantly. The higher grade petrol is usually about 10p a litre more expensive, but interestingly the MPH rate and performance, has also improved, so it more or less pays for itself.  I certainly will not be putting any of this new Mickey Mouse fuel in my car.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by David Schweizer

[Tony Brooks]

I think there is a lot of back covering going on. We have had up to 7% ethanol in petrol for years and vert little problems ensued. Now we are to have 3% more, will it make that amount of difference?  Sure, the ethanol will evaporate, but so does the lighter components in petrol. I am sure ethanol will attack certain rubbers, plastics and metals, but just how much difference will 3 to 5% more make?

 

I will admit that my Briggs & Stratton lawn mower engine suffers from faster degradation of a flimsy diaphragm cum vale flap "gasket" than it used to with leaded petrol, but the plastic and brass in the carb seems fine. "Rubber" fuel lines have always needed checking for deterioration, so nothing new there.

 

On the pinking question, I think ethanol has a better resistance to pinking that petrol, in fact it used it be added to certain brands of petrol for this purpose (Cleveland).

 

I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference to the mechanical parts of the engine.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, David Schweizer said:

My VW car has a 1.4 high performance twin turbo engine, which runs ok with standard petol, but has a tendancy to pink when fully laden and ascending steep hills from a slow speed start. I dread to think how it will perform with this new E10 petrol, even though the official VW charts suggest that my car will run on it.  When I first identified the problem with my car pinking, my garage suggested using Super Unleaded petrol instead of standard petrol, and it has certainly reduced the pinking significantly. The higher grade petrol is usually about 10p a litre more expensive, but interestingly the MPH rate and performance, has also improved, so it more or less pays for itself.  

 

 

Interestingly I had the same outcome in 1990. A new car ran better with better fuel economy on 4 star .

[Momac]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

We have had up to 7% ethanol in petrol for years 

I though it was E5= up to 5% ethanol presently?

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, MartynG said:

I though it was E5= up to 5% ethanol presently?

 

True, but as said in one of the links, the exact proportion is not known for any delivery. Getting mixed up with diesel. I still don't see an extra 5% is going to make a significant difference.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

True, but as said in one of the links, the exact proportion is not known for any delivery. Getting mixed up with diesel. I still don't see an extra 5% is going to make a significant difference.

 

A 100% increase !

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A 100% increase !

 

Yes, but we discussed using such figures in the covid thread. It is still only a 5% increase in ethanol. It's less than an extra 1/4 pint of ethanol per litre making a total of half  a pint per 4.56 pints.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, MartynG said:

 

I bought some super unleaded  and the mower now starts more easily and runs more evenly  . For the small amount of fuel the mower uses the cost of the super unleaded  is insignificant.

 

Not sure where I can Buy that near me

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Yes, but we discussed using such figures in the covid thread. It is still only a 5% increase in ethanol. It's less than an extra 1/4 pint of ethanol per litre making a total of half  a pint per 4.56 pints.

 

I think there may be a bit of mixing up of units there ............

 

4.54 litres per gallon, E10 at 10% = 0.45 litres per gallon.

 

5% Ethanol is known to have some (small) affect on petrol systens', somethig twice as 'strong' must have a greater effect.

 

Even if it is just holding 2x as much water and sinking to the bottom of the tank to be picked up as 'pure' ethanol & water.

 

I do not have personal knowledge and rely on reading about it. It looks to me to be, mechanically speaking, a retrograde step.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think there may be a bit of mixing up of units there ............

 

4.54 litres per gallon, E10 at 10% = 0.45 litres per gallon.

 

5% Ethanol is known to have some (small) affect on petrol systens', somethig twice as 'strong' must have a greater effect.

 

Even if it is just holding 2x as much water and sinking to the bottom of the tank to be picked up as 'pure' ethanol & water.

 

I do not have personal knowledge and rely on reading about it. It looks to me to be, mechanically speaking, a retrograde step.

 

I agree a retrograde step but I think there is a lot of scaremongering about.

[Momac]

22 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Not sure where I can Buy that near me

I know Asda don't do super but I know  the Jet station near me does. I guess you should look for fuel stations like BP, Shell, Esso rather than supermarket stations.

[Momac]

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I agree a retrograde step but I think there is a lot of scaremongering about.

The doubts about whether everything will be okay goes back to when unleaded was introduced and later when 4 star was withdrawn. Despite the promises some cars did not like unleaded at all .  Once new cars did away with carburettors in favour of fuel injection the issues were solved.

[doratheexplorer]

21 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

I have a Kipor IG1000 and the manual says not to use fuel containing _more_than_ 10% ethanol, so it looks like that's in the clear, for now.

 

MP.

I have a larger Kipor and there's no mention in the manual.  Which section does yours say it?

[Alan de Enfield]

49 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I have a larger Kipor and there's no mention in the manual.  Which section does yours say it?

 

Right hand side "gasolines containing alcohol'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Manual for my Kipor 2 Kw

 

 

 

Kipor-IG2000P-Petrol-Generator-Operation-Manual-.pdf

Edited August 3, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Right hand side "gasolines containing alcohol'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Manual for my Kipor 2 Kw

 

 

 

Kipor-IG2000P-Petrol-Generator-Operation-Manual-.pdf 1.17 MB · 0 downloads

I've found 2 manuals for mine online and one says 10%, the other says nothing.  I'll have to dig out the actual paper one I think.

 

Although, it seems long term storage may be a bigger issue for me.  I get through roughly 2 x 2 gallon jerry cans a year. 

[Mad Harold]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think there is a lot of back covering going on. We have had up to 7% ethanol in petrol for years and vert little problems ensued. Now we are to have 3% more, will it make that amount of difference?  Sure, the ethanol will evaporate, but so does the lighter components in petrol. I am sure ethanol will attack certain rubbers, plastics and metals, but just how much difference will 3 to 5% more make?

 

I will admit that my Briggs & Stratton lawn mower engine suffers from faster degradation of a flimsy diaphragm cum vale flap "gasket" than it used to with leaded petrol, but the plastic and brass in the carb seems fine. "Rubber" fuel lines have always needed checking for deterioration, so nothing new there.

 

On the pinking question, I think ethanol has a better resistance to pinking that petrol, in fact it used it be added to certain brands of petrol for this purpose (Cleveland).

 

I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference to the mechanical parts of the engine.

I think you mean Cleveland Discol with Alchohol.

Had an Austin A40 and that used to pink and really rattle when you put your foot down at low revs running on that.

Needed to retard the ignition a whisker to cure it.

[ditchcrawler]

I wonder what testing has been carried out if if they just said its OK for the percentage that was expected to be added to petrol. If they were building the same engine today would they just say OK for 15% as that is above what's planned to be added. 20 years ago the idea was never considered so did the manufactures know if their equipment would be OK or not

[blackrose]

I use this stuff in my generator and outboard to stop the fuel going stale over time.

 

The other thing I do after using them is switch the fuel tap off and let the generator or outboard "run out of fuel" in order to burn all the fuel in the carb and reduce the chances of it gumming up if it's left for too long. 

 

I've no idea whether either of those measures would work with the new E10 petrol?

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by blackrose

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

............ 20 years ago the idea was never considered so did the manufactures know if their equipment would be OK or not

 

I think it has been commonplace in other countries for many years.

My little 2hp Honda is an '80s model and the (1985) manual states it is OK for 10% Ethanol.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think it has been commonplace in other countries for many years.

My little 2hp Honda is an '80s model and the (1985) manual states it is OK for 10% Ethanol.

 

 

and I think certain South American countries have been running with a far higher percentage for a very long time, and I can't see manufacturers building retail equipment specifically for just one or two countries.

[jonathanA]

5 hours ago, MartynG said:

I had some of last years petrol which I put in my lawnmower but the  lawnmower did not like it.

I bought some super unleaded  and the mower now starts more easily and runs more evenly  . For the small amount of fuel the mower uses the cost of the super unleaded  is insignificant.

 

I have an outboard made in 1966. It also likes the super unleaded.

 

There is some special long life fuel you can buy but it is not cheap

https://aspenfuel.co.uk/

 

.

 

 

 

I think tree monkey referred to this too. I use it in my 'best' 2 stroke (Stihl) machines and it doesn't go off, doesn't gum up and doesn't rot the fuel pipes and priming bulbs. It's horrendously expensive £20/gallon. It does burn very cleanly so its great in hedge cutters or saws where you get regularly get gob fulls of exhaust. Too expensive for lawnmowers or gennys.

[gatekrash]

This topic has been doing the rounds on classic car forums for ages, and Tony's post earlier pretty much sums up the discussion on there.

 

Ethanol has been present in petrol in other countries for years, and the bits it eats - rubber fuel lines and gaskets - have been ethanol resistant for even longer. If you still have any non-resistant hose left then it's time it was changed anyway, as it's likely to be decomposed beyond a safe condition, especially as you'll have been running E5 through it already. 

 

Yes, it'll go stale faster, but using fuel stabiliser helps. Given that the majority of users who will have a problem because it's sitting around are also the ones likely to be using very low volumes, then it's not going to be a significant cost to treat it.

 

I've got loads of stuff that uses small volume - chainsaw, genny, the Mrs' Triumph 3TA bike. I just run till the carb is dry when shutting down and make sure I use fresh in the tank next fill, and then if it's going a bit off it gets chucked into the 1959 landy which runs on any old rubbish, in fact I think it prefers it as it's more like the 2 star it's meant to run on !

 

If there was a risk of serious mechanical issues then it'd be all over the 'net from other countries which have been at a higher level of ethanol for quite a while - there aren't any other than a bit of hearsay.

 

At least the majority of you will still be able to choose to buy E5 if you want. Down here in Devon the fuel companies have been given a get out from delivering E5 going forward as we're deemed too rural for their supply chain, so they can get away with only providing E10, so I don't get a choice!

 

[Alan de Enfield]

59 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I can't see manufacturers building retail equipment specifically for just one or two countries.

 

Neither can I, and my experience with the automotive industry is that they look at what is needed around the world and make for the 'worst case' knowing that it will work with other fuels as well.

 

If it works with E10, it'll work with E5 or neat petrol.

 

A typical example of this is the car wiring harness - every car harness (within a model line) is identical and has cabling for every option available, electric windows, air con, etc etc etc, if the model going down the line does not need air con, then the cable is just not used.

 

It is far more economical to build one single harness (not stopping production, replacing the harness boards starting up manufacturing again etc etc, then having to stock 100's of variations of harness to accomodate the number of variants, so you'd need one with JUST Air-con, another with BOTH  Air-Con and ABS, another with ABS and electric sun-roof and so on,) 

[churchward]

On 02/08/2021 at 13:38, MoominPapa said:

I have a Kipor IG1000 and the manual says not to use fuel containing _more_than_ 10% ethanol, so it looks like that's in the clear, for now.

 

MP.

It is the same with the Honda generator we have. Honda states that petrol can be up to a max of 10% ethanol.