E10 petrol in generators (and garden equipment)

[Slim]

I may have missed it but has anyone posted on the switch to E10 petrol from September and it's impact on petrol generators. It will only affect me in respect of garden equipment as I have a cacooned diesel generator. According to the AA only Super Unleaded will be suitable in future . 

[Athy]

7 minutes ago, Slim said:

I may have missed it but has anyone posted on the switch to E10 petrol from September and it's impact on petrol generators. It will only affect me in respect of garden equipment as I have a cacooned diesel generator. According to the AA only Super Unleaded will be suitable in future . 

What is the difference between this "E10" petrol and the normal type?

You mention garden equipment. Will my lawn mower run on it?

[OldGoat]

10 minutes ago, Athy said:

What is the difference between this "E10" petrol and the normal type?

You mention garden equipment. Will my lawn mower run on it?

I hope so, I've got -

2 x John Deere  gaarden grass cutters

1 petrol mower

2 x chain saws

2 x brush cutters

2 x petrol generators

(all of them work - or can be persuaded so to do....)

[tree monkey]

6 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

I hope so, I've got -

2 x John Deere  gaarden grass cutters

1 petrol mower

2 x chain saws

2 x brush cutters

2 x petrol generators

(all of them work - or can be persuaded so to do....)

Unless the manufacturer says the new fuel is ok it's being suggested to switch to the posh premium stuff as that's staying the same apparently 

[Rob-M]

I filled up at an Asda petrol station yesterday and they were only selling E10 and diesel, they didn't have any super unleaded pumps so it looked like hard luck if you had an older car or any other petrol equipment that wouldn't run on E10.

[Wizzer]

Info here

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained#about-e10-petrol

[Slim]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

What is the difference between this "E10" petrol and the normal type?

You mention garden equipment. Will my lawn mower run on it?

According to the AA ,(yes the AA) the answer is no.  We will have to use Super unleaded at about 10 p a litre more. E10 is more bio based than E5. No idea how long Super unleaded will remain suitable. 

[Slim]

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

I filled up at an Asda petrol station yesterday and they were only selling E10 and diesel, they didn't have any super unleaded pumps so it looked like hard luck if you had an older car or any other petrol equipment that wouldn't run on E10.

That was what was really in my mind when I first posted. I think one of my local filling stations stocks Super but as the car's diesel I don't normally pay much attention. I'm pretty sure my local Tesco doesn't sell it.

1 hour ago, tree monkey said:

that's staying the same apparently 

But for how long?

[tree monkey]

For those with older or even new bits of garden machinery there is this option 

https://aspenfuel.co.uk/

Those who use it do rave about it, particularly the 2 stroke but of course it's more expensive than bog standard 

[Bod]

Already discussed here,

The basic problem is the "spirit" part of E10 evaporates much quicker than the old petrol did, leaving a gum like residue which blocks jets, etc.   The E10 part is also "stronger" which can have a bad reaction with some rubber parts.

It is already seen that the cheapest way to fix a problem carburettor is to replace it.

 

Bod.

[MoominPapa]

I have a Kipor IG1000 and the manual says not to use fuel containing _more_than_ 10% ethanol, so it looks like that's in the clear, for now.

 

MP.

[tree monkey]

9 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

I have a Kipor IG1000 and the manual says not to use fuel containing _more_than_ 10% ethanol, so it looks like that's in the clear, for now.

 

MP.

But with your posh new shiny batteries do you need the genny, I thought they sucked power out of fresh air and made you a fresh hot brew every morning

[MoominPapa]

1 minute ago, tree monkey said:

But with your posh new shiny batteries do you need the genny, I thought they sucked power out of fresh air and made you a fresh hot brew every morning

The generator has not been used since we left lockdown at the end of March (but we did buy some juice from a hookup at the Retford and Worksop boat club last week.)

 

I've not quite got the "power from fresh air" module in the software debugged yet.

 

MP.

[JamesWoolcock]

17 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

I have a Kipor IG1000 and the manual says not to use fuel containing _more_than_ 10% ethanol, so it looks like that's in the clear, for now.

 

MP.

And Mr Honda say OK too.

[Jerra]

Does anyone know how this will alter two stroke?   Will we need to use the higher price petrol to mix with?

[tree monkey]

2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Does anyone know how this will alter two stroke?   Will we need to use the higher price petrol to mix with?

The talk is yes but check the manual, Aspen linked to above is an option of course

 

To add I'm talking chainsaws/strimmers, I've now idea about bigger CC engines 

Edited August 2, 2021 by tree monkey

[Jerra]

12 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

The talk is yes but check the manual, Aspen linked to above is an option of course

 

To add I'm talking chainsaws/strimmers, I've now idea about bigger CC engines 

Thanks! I am thinking of my strimmer (ancient) and my Hedge Trimmer (new).

[Alan de Enfield]

Just checked and my Kipor Jennifer is OK with E10, so looked at my tender 5Hp Tohatsu 2-stroke and that says "NO" whilst the 2hp (4-stroke) Honda outboard (for the other tender) and again it is OK with E10, but noted that Honda say :

 

 

Other interesting facts about ethanol

• Ethanol is produced from corn, soybeans, sugar cane, or other organic material. It is blended with gasoline (10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) to produce E10.
• Ethanol has 28% less energy density than gasoline, so it reduces fuel efficiency.
• Ethanol is an excellent solvent, drying agent and cleanser. It will clean or dissolve some parts of, and deposits in, fuel storage and fuel delivery systems, including some fuel tank materials. The dissolved material can clog filters or pass through and leave deposits on fuel injectors, fuel pumps, fuel pressure regulators, carburetor jets, intake tracts, valves, and valve guides.
• Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it attracts and retains water. The lower the fuel level in the tank, the more likely you will experience water contamination. If the contamination is severe, a layer of alcohol/water can form at the bottom of the fuel tank. This is called phase separation, and can cause damage to the fuel tank and engine.

To help prevent water contamination problems when using a gasoline/ethanol mix:

• Keep your fuel tank as full as possible with fresh fuel and out of direct sunlight.
• Install additional water separating fuel filters in your boat and keep spare filters on-hand.
• Use a fuel stabilizer along with fresh fuel when your boat is stored (follow the procedure noted in your owner’s manual to ensure proper storage).
• Use a gas station with a reputation for quality fuel.
• Know the specific fuel laws for your state as laws and fuel composition change often.

 

 

Mercury (probably the biggest OB engine manufacturer)  says "NO", do not use E10.

 

Over the past few months I have been getting reader enquiries about E10 unleaded petrol ethanol fuel for outboard motors (which contains 10 per cent ethanol). The readers have been asking, in view of diminishing availability of standard 91 RON ULP, is E10 ethanol fuel suitable for marine engines?

The answer is “NO” and according to marine fuels expert Ken Evans of Mercury Marine there are several reasons why this fuel should not be used, even though all current model outboards, be they two or four-stroke, will run on this fuel

ETHANOL FUEL IN OUTBOARDS

According to Ken, the primary reason is the extremely short shelf-life of E10, which is around two weeks from the time it leaves the refinery. The fuel literally goes “stale” after this period and has to be ditched, because of “phase separation”. This is where any moisture in the petrol is absorbed by the ethanol, which then separates from the petrol itself. The water/ethanol mix is heavier than petrol and sinks to the bottom of the fuel tank, right where the fuel pickup is located.

This mix passes through the carburetor(s), or fuel injection system, resulting in expensive repairs. In the case of premix two-strokes, the water/ethanol mix contains no lubricating oil, so the engine will seize in a very short period.

Additives are currently available that claim to fix the phase separation problem, but Ken says once this has happened with ethanol fuels the only remedy is to ditch the fuel.

Another problem with E10 is the sometimes variable percentage of ethanol in the petrol. Ken says that the ethanol is added to the petrol after it leaves the refinery, and there is no guarantee of the percentage added. According to Dave Denny of Lakeside Marine, the national Tohatsu Outboards distributor, reports from ethanol percentage tests conducted in the US indicate that E10 may contain up to 48 per cent ethanol, which of course voids all new motor warranties should the powerhead fail from excessive ethanol in the fuel. Extensive alcohol-content surveys of fuel outlets undertaken in the US indicated that most of the fuels had a higher ethanol content than stated on the pump bowsers.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Mad Harold]

40 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just checked and my Kipor Jennifer is OK with E10, so looked at my tender 5Hp Tohatsu 2-stroke and that says "NO" whilst the 2hp (4-stroke) Honda outboard (for the other tender) and again it is OK with E10, but noted that Honda say :

 

 

Other interesting facts about ethanol

• Ethanol is produced from corn, soybeans, sugar cane, or other organic material. It is blended with gasoline (10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) to produce E10.
• Ethanol has 28% less energy density than gasoline, so it reduces fuel efficiency.
• Ethanol is an excellent solvent, drying agent and cleanser. It will clean or dissolve some parts of, and deposits in, fuel storage and fuel delivery systems, including some fuel tank materials. The dissolved material can clog filters or pass through and leave deposits on fuel injectors, fuel pumps, fuel pressure regulators, carburetor jets, intake tracts, valves, and valve guides.
• Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it attracts and retains water. The lower the fuel level in the tank, the more likely you will experience water contamination. If the contamination is severe, a layer of alcohol/water can form at the bottom of the fuel tank. This is called phase separation, and can cause damage to the fuel tank and engine.

To help prevent water contamination problems when using a gasoline/ethanol mix:

• Keep your fuel tank as full as possible with fresh fuel and out of direct sunlight.
• Install additional water separating fuel filters in your boat and keep spare filters on-hand.
• Use a fuel stabilizer along with fresh fuel when your boat is stored (follow the procedure noted in your owner’s manual to ensure proper storage).
• Use a gas station with a reputation for quality fuel.
• Know the specific fuel laws for your state as laws and fuel composition change often.

 

 

Mercury (probably the biggest OB engine manufacturer)  says "NO", do not use E10.

 

Over the past few months I have been getting reader enquiries about E10 unleaded petrol ethanol fuel for outboard motors (which contains 10 per cent ethanol). The readers have been asking, in view of diminishing availability of standard 91 RON ULP, is E10 ethanol fuel suitable for marine engines?

The answer is “NO” and according to marine fuels expert Ken Evans of Mercury Marine there are several reasons why this fuel should not be used, even though all current model outboards, be they two or four-stroke, will run on this fuel

ETHANOL FUEL IN OUTBOARDS

According to Ken, the primary reason is the extremely short shelf-life of E10, which is around two weeks from the time it leaves the refinery. The fuel literally goes “stale” after this period and has to be ditched, because of “phase separation”. This is where any moisture in the petrol is absorbed by the ethanol, which then separates from the petrol itself. The water/ethanol mix is heavier than petrol and sinks to the bottom of the fuel tank, right where the fuel pickup is located.

This mix passes through the carburetor(s), or fuel injection system, resulting in expensive repairs. In the case of premix two-strokes, the water/ethanol mix contains no lubricating oil, so the engine will seize in a very short period.

Additives are currently available that claim to fix the phase separation problem, but Ken says once this has happened with ethanol fuels the only remedy is to ditch the fuel.

Another problem with E10 is the sometimes variable percentage of ethanol in the petrol. Ken says that the ethanol is added to the petrol after it leaves the refinery, and there is no guarantee of the percentage added. According to Dave Denny of Lakeside Marine, the national Tohatsu Outboards distributor, reports from ethanol percentage tests conducted in the US indicate that E10 may contain up to 48 per cent ethanol, which of course voids all new motor warranties should the powerhead fail from excessive ethanol in the fuel. Extensive alcohol-content surveys of fuel outlets undertaken in the US indicated that most of the fuels had a higher ethanol content than stated on the pump bowsers.

 

Thank you for that rather depressing post Alan.

Seems I will need to tip any remaining petrol after a cruise into the car,and use fresh for the next cruise.

Your post has prompted me to check   my engine handbook (Tohatsu four stroke) it says it's ok with up to 10% Ethanol,but if it is to be left for any length of time,then the tank,fuel lines,carburettor,and fuel pump need to be drained.Also to fit a water seperating filter and check joints and fuel hoses regularly for deterioration and leaks.

I guess I will need to do similar with the car,as I use it infrequently.

My wallet won't run to an electric car,but I might manage an electric moped.

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Thank you for that rather depressing post Alan.

Seems I will need to tip any remaining petrol after a cruise into the car,and use fresh for the next cruise.

Your post has prompted me to check   my engine handbook (Tohatsu four stroke) it says it's ok with up to 10% Ethanol,but if it is to be left for any length of time,then the tank,fuel lines,carburettor,and fuel pump need to be drained.Also to fit a water seperating filter and check joints and fuel hoses regularly for deterioration and leaks.

I guess I will need to do similar with the car,as I use it infrequently.

My wallet won't run to an electric car,but I might manage an electric moped.

 

 

But its all good news because it is more environmentally friendly.

But, the fact it has 28% less energy density than petrol means that you have to burn more of it to get the same power.

MPG will reduce.

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

But its all good news because it is more environmentally friendly.

But, the fact it has 28% less energy density than petrol means that you have to burn more of it to get the same power.

MPG will reduce.

Maybe everyone will change to super unleaded or whatever its called

[Slim]

Having opened  this cañ of worms my head is now hurting. Somewhere in Alan's post it states that E10 goes off within 14 days. If so potentially those who drive a petrol car less than about 150 miles a week or leave one unused for more than 14 days with fuel in the tank can expect issues. That can't be right. Too late tonight to delve deeper.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Slim said:

Somewhere in Alan's post it states that E10 goes off within 14 days.

 

 

It was quoted from a technical person at Mercury (one of the largest providers of 'marine propulsion')

 

From Wikipedia

 

Mercury Marine is one of the world’s leading providers of marine propulsion. As a $2.3 billion division of Brunswick Corporation, Mercury and its 6,200 employees worldwide provide engines, boats, services and parts for recreational, commercial and government marine applications.

Mercury’s brand portfolio includes Mercury and Mariner, Mercury MerCruiser sterndrives and inboard engines, MotorGuide trolling motors, Mercury and Teignbridge propellers, Mercury inflatable boats, Mercury SmartCraft electronics, and Mercury and Quicksilver parts and oils. MotoTron electronic controls was also a part of Mercury Marine, but as of October 2008 Brunswick Corp. sold MotoTron and its intellectual properties to Woodward Governor of Fort Collins, Colorado.

 

Mercury outboards 30hp and less are actually manufactured to Mercury design and specifications by Tohatsu in Japan

[David Mack]

Stihl reckon that E10 is OK in their petrol powered tools, but even so do not recommend you store the fuel for longer than 30 days.

https://blog.stihl.co.uk/how-will-e10-petrol-affect-your-stihl-chainsaw/

Not sure where that leaves my 15+ year old Stihl strimmer that gets used about twice a year, is run dry after use, but with any leftover mixed up 2 stroke returned to the petrol can until next time.

Edited August 2, 2021 by David Mack

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Stihl reckon that E10 is OK in their petrol powered tools, but even so do not reccomend you store the fuel for longer than 30 days.

https://blog.stihl.co.uk/how-will-e10-petrol-affect-your-stihl-chainsaw/

Not sure where that leaves my 15+ year old Stihl strimmer that gets used about twice a year, is run dry after use, but with any leftover mixed up 2 stroke returned to the petrol can until next time.

My mower has done a few seasons as well