New build or nearly new close-enough?

[Momac]

On 27/07/2021 at 21:19, jetzi said:

 

 I thought boaters had to use white diesel from April next year? 

 

Not so .

Budget 2021 announced that the government would maintain the entitlement to use red diesel beyond April 2022 for all commercial boat operating industries, including but not limited to the fishing and inland water freight industries. The government also decided not to change the treatment of private pleasure craft in Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fuel-duty-changes-for-diesel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft/fuel-duty-changes-for-diesel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft

 

 

[Mike Todd]

On 29/07/2021 at 12:06, MtB said:

 

VAT doesn't affect the value of second hand boats. With a few rare exceptions VAT is not charged on second hand boats, so it can't.

 

And remember the VA stands for value added. Uf you find add value there us no extra tax. VAT is not a sales tax.

[Bargebuilder]

It isn't a foregone conclusion that you will lose more money or even any money when you eventually sell your new build boat, that is if you are prepared to do the fit-out yourself.

 

10 years ago I commissioned a yard to fabricate a steel barge to a sail away stage including engine, stern gear, spray foam insulation, flooring, double glazed windows and Iroko double glazed wheelhouse, then completed the domestic fit-out myself with oak cabinets, granite worktops etc.

 

I paid 80k for the sail away,  spent 30k on the fit out, enjoyed a wonderful custom made barge for 7 years and then sold it on for £160k. 

 

Of course, I didn't actually make £50k because I probably spent that if you include my personal labour, but that was fun; mostly!

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

10 years ago I commissioned a yard to fabricate a steel barge to a sail away stage including engine, stern gear, spray foam insulation, flooring, double glazed windows and Iroko double glazed wheelhouse, then completed the domestic fit-out myself with oak cabinets, granite worktops etc.

 

But you should also consider the change in RCD legislation 4 years ago where 'sail-away annexe III(a) declaration' is no longer available.

Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft..

[Momac]

Does anyone really care about RCD compliance except  HMC in an import / export situation?

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Does anyone really care about RCD compliance except  HMC in an import / export situation?

 

 

I would say yes, considering the number of posts I read about registration papers, Gas work sign off etc. Lots of people want bits of paper when buying a boat

[Bargebuilder]

The guy who bought my barge didn't even ask about RCD. Come to that he didn't even ask for the vat invoice for the shell.

 

So no.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Does anyone really care about RCD compliance except  HMC in an import / export situation?

 

 

 

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would say yes, considering the number of posts I read about registration papers, Gas work sign off etc. Lots of people want bits of paper when buying a boat

 

 

And with recent reports on this very forum of brokers refusing to take boats on their books without the RCD / RCR paperwork, or a PCA it appears to becoming more important - particularly, as RCD / RCR compliance is now a 'lifetime' requirement, and any changes that affect propulsion (change propulsion type, increase engine HP by more than 15%), modifications to gas or any safety critical system, including fitting out, ballast and stability, means a PCA is now required.

[Bargebuilder]

I've bought and sold 6 boats over the years and never sold through a traditional broker.

 

Internet brokers have no such requirements and most buyers seem to have little knowledge of the regulations.

 

Of the dozens of enquiries I had for my barge, nobody raised the subject of RCD at all.

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Internet brokers have no such requirements and most buyers seem to have little knowledge of the regulations.

 

Ignorance of the law, for both seller and buyer, is no excuse.

 

28 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Internet brokers have no such requirements

 

The brokers cited as refusing to sell the boats are main stream "bricks, mortar and water" brokers not internet brokers,

[Bargebuilder]

Traditional brokers use the same internet sites that are available to private sellers, so there is no need to use their services.

 

From recent first hand experience of selling my £160k barge, nobody even asked about RCDs, let alone the other paperwork mentioned above. They either didn't know about it or didn't care about it.

 

When I last year sold my cottage, I advised all the potential buyers at their viewings that I had no HETAS certificate for the multifuel stove and no FENSA certificate for the windows, but that didn't stop me from getting five offers. I bought the cottage 2 years previously and the absence of certificates didn't put me off either. It would seem that if someone falls in love with a boat (or a house), they just don't worry about certificates.

[peterboat]

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

And with recent reports on this very forum of brokers refusing to take boats on their books without the RCD / RCR paperwork, or a PCA it appears to becoming more important - particularly, as RCD / RCR compliance is now a 'lifetime' requirement, and any changes that affect propulsion (change propulsion type, increase engine HP by more than 15%), modifications to gas or any safety critical system, including fitting out, ballast and stability, means a PCA is now required.

When I went cleaner with my electric conversion no BSS or RCD was required, I checked and nobody included the insurance was interested. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

When I went cleaner with my electric conversion no BSS or RCD was required, I checked and nobody included the insurance was interested. 

 

The BSS wouldn't be, but who did you speak to 'as a representative' of the RCD, as it does specifically mention re-engining and changing propulsion methods.

 

The new Directive has also clarified the definition of Major Craft Conversion, which is now also included in the new Directive. Major Craft Conversion means ” … a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this Directive”.

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The BSS wouldn't be, but who did you speak to 'as a representative' of the RCD, as it does specifically mention re-engining and changing propulsion methods.

 

The new Directive has also clarified the definition of Major Craft Conversion, which is now also included in the new Directive. Major Craft Conversion means ” … a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this Directive”.

Dave at the BSS office he had a look at the current at the time regs which because it was a cleaner system didn't apply 

[David Mack]

11 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

When I last year sold my cottage, I advised all the potential buyers at their viewings that I had no HETAS certificate for the multifuel stove and no FENSA certificate for the windows, but that didn't stop me from getting five offers.

When we sold my late father's house we couldn't find the FENSA certificate or the paperwork for the replacement gas boiler. The solicitor suggested we offer the buyer an indemnity policy. It cost the princely sum of £11.20, which I think shows what a low risk the insurers think a lack of paperwork represents.

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, David Mack said:

When we sold my late father's house we couldn't find the FENSA certificate or the paperwork for the replacement gas boiler. The solicitor suggested we offer the buyer an indemnity policy. It cost the princely sum of £11.20, which I think shows what a low risk the insurers think a lack of paperwork represents.

 

I think those indemnity policies are indemnity against enforcement of the window and boiler regulations by local council Building Control, rather than the windows falling out or the boiler exploding.

[PD1964]

14 hours ago, MartynG said:

Does anyone really care about RCD compliance except  HMC in an import / export situation?

 

 

He seams to care VERY much about it as it’s all he goes on about, cutting and pasting everything, I think it’s hard for him to get his head around the fact that few on the canal system are really bothered about it and boats carry on being bought and sold without compliant RCD’s.

Edited July 31, 2021 by PD1964

[PD1964]

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Ignorance of the law, for both seller and buyer, is no excuse.

 

 

The brokers cited as refusing to sell the boats are main stream "bricks, mortar and water" brokers not internet brokers,

As I have asked you before, please name these Brokers so people are aware of them, you seam to do a lot of “Sabre rattling” about RCD’s and new PCA’s after alterations and you say I bury my head about them, well looking at the replies you get everyone bury’s their heads because they just don’t happen in the real world of Narrowboats, unlike what they obviously do in your world of off shore.

Edited July 31, 2021 by PD1964

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

As I have asked you before, please name these Brokers so people are aware of them,

 

I did not record them, they are on the forum for all to see, and are reports from people trying to sell their own narrowboat and being refused brokerage services,

 

I have no axe to grind if people follow the rules, or don't follow the rules, I just think that people should be aware of what the law states so they can make an informed decision and will not be surprised IF they are picked up on their choices in the future.

 

Telling people to just ignore the law is not at all helpful.

[Alan de Enfield]

43 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

as it’s all he goes on about, cutting and pasting everything

 

If I was just to say you cannot do this or that, you'd be the first to demand evidence from source - pretty much as you demand that I provide a list of brokers who will not sell boats without an RCD / RCR.

 

You cannot have it both ways, either you want to see evidence and have to live with links or pastes, or you trust what I say is correct,

 

Because you are on a canal does not place you (or anyone else) above the laws of the land. You can choose to ignore them but it is not right that you tell others that they should also ignore them. Let them make their own decisons.

[Bargebuilder]

Half decent boats are in such short supply compared to demand that any buyer knows that if they refuse to buy what might be their dream boat just because of the lack of a certificate about which few people care, someone else will snap it up from under them.

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If I was just to say you cannot do this or that, you'd be the first to demand evidence from source - pretty much as you demand that I provide a list of brokers who will not sell boats without an RCD / RCR.

 

You cannot have it both ways, either you want to see evidence and have to live with links or pastes, or you trust what I say is correct,

 

Because you are on a canal does not place you (or anyone else) above the laws of the land. You can choose to ignore them but it is not right that you tell others that they should also ignore them. Let them make their own decisons.

I don’t tell people to ignore them, especially on a new build, what I say is the majority of people aren’t that bothered about the RCD on the Canals. You obviously are but your off shore so probably more regarded as important to you and when boats could be sold internationally.
 The majority of boats on the canal system would not comply with current RCR regulations or have PCA’s done when modified. When people buy and sell a Narrowboat all they’re concerned about is the Survey report and  BSS and it’s that simple, unless brand new obviously. You might not agree with it but that’s how it is. 
  I’ve tried various word searches for these Brokers but the majority of results are your post’s going on about it and RCD/RCR’s legal requirements on a boat, your obviously the most concerned person about RCD/RCR requirement on the Forum.

  Let’s not take the OP off track and help the poster with his original question on opinions of the boat. I’m sure with him having a boat he will know what paperwork it will need.

Edited July 31, 2021 by PD1964

[Alan de Enfield]

47 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

You obviously are but your off shore so probably more regarded as important to you and when boats could be sold internationally.

 

But have only just moved so both boats are now on the lumpy stuff.

I have been on the canals since the early 80s and left  October 2019 - best part of 40 years on the muddy-ditches,

 

The RCD is important to any boater who wishes to stay within the law, be they on the Lakes, the Canals, the Rivers or the Sea.

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I did not record them, they are on the forum for all to see, and are reports from people trying to sell their own narrowboat and being refused brokerage services,

 

 

I don't recall any posts/threads, discussing refusal of brokerage services, that you describe as "on the forum for all to see".

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

 
 The majority of boats on the canal system would not comply with current RCR regulations  

Surprisingly I saw a nearly new hire boat last week that doesn't comply with the RCD as it has two tiddly little coloured light for port and starboard on the side of the cabin, why they fitted light to a hire boat at all I don't know, but to fit none compliant ones.