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Diesel fuel pipe interior fitting


Clodi

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I have a dedicated heater fuel tank to supply our Heritage Uno but not sure of the BSS requirement for running the fuel pipe internally. I've been told by one chandlers that 6mm rubber is OK, another says 8mm rubber is fine, my initial thought was I had to use brass but obviously rubber is much easier to install with brass an the ends. Can any knowledgeable BSS requirment people please advise? I'll be having the stove professionally commissioned when I finally get the installing done. I must say the installation instructions for fitting into narrowboats are really thorough but it's the BSS side of things I'm unsure about.

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As far as I know, the use of diesel fuel pipes to a stove is not covered in the BSS, if that is correct then I'd suggest that an examiner (rightly ?) would use the engine fuel line 'rules'

 

Which are basically summarised :

 

 

2.10   Fuel feed return and on‐engine lines

2.10.1R Are all fuel feed, return and on‐engine pipes made of suitable materials?   

2.10.2R Are all fuel feed, return and on‐engine hoses suitable for the fuel used and fire resistant?   

2.10.3R Are all feed, return and on‐engine pipes secure and in good condition?   

2.10.4R Are all fuel feed, return and on‐engine hoses properly supported and in good condition?    

2.10.5R Do the injector leak‐off (spill rail) arrangements meet specified requirements? 

 

 

Fuel pipes must be made of suitable materials.

Suitable materials include:

• aluminium alloy

• copper

• mild steel (for diesel only)

• stainless steel

 

Fuel feed, return and on‐engine hoses must be marked, to denote both suitability for the fuel used and fire resistance, to BS EN ISO 7840 or an equivalent standard.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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There is a fuel line in my boat to supply diesel to a stove. It is in copper and was put in place by the boat builder (Piper). It has never been used as the boat has always had a solid fuel stove. Personally I would go with a metal pipe, rather than rubber. Probably cheaper too in copper than for the correct BS standard rubber in the length required.

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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I will be using copper pipe with brass compression fittings when I get round to installing my diesel stove. And aiming to meet the BSS requirements for engine fuel lines.

Copper pipe will last indefinitely. Rubber hoses may be liable to perish and need periodic renewal.

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Just now, David Mack said:

I will be using copper pipe with brass compression fittings when I get round to installing my diesel stove. And aiming to meet the BSS requirements for engine fuel lines.

Copper pipe will last indefinitely. Rubber hoses may be liable to perish and need periodic renewal.

 

And they eventually leak - who wants floors inside the boat soaked in diesel. It will stink for perpetuity.

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As your Heritage Uno has a pressure jet burner which needs to be removed for servicing, it cannot really be compared to that of a fixed diesel installation like a Bubble etc. 

Maybe this is an instance where you follow the Manufacturer's Instruction, which will be a solid pipe (usually copper) into the boiler casing, with a flexible hose from the inlet to the burner with screwed connections and to the relevant BS specification. I would be surprised if the stove did not come with the correct item as every oil appliance I've seen always does. These flexible hoses should be replaced every 12 months if braided, or 24 months for long life nitrile.

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3 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

Maybe this is an instance where you follow the Manufacturer's Instruction, which will be a solid pipe (usually copper) into the boiler casing, with a flexible hose from the inlet to the burner with screwed connections and to the relevant BS specification. I would be surprised if the stove did not come with the correct item as every oil appliance I've seen always does. These flexible hoses should be replaced every 12 months if braided, or 24 months for long life nitrile.

 

Just another extract from the BSS :

 

NOTE – hoses marked to SAE J 1527, DIN 4798 or RINA DIP/66/96 are acceptable.

NOTE – the presence of armoured or other external braiding is not evidence of hose suitability or fire resistance. Such hoses must be marked as above.

NOTE – where a hose is not marked to an accepted standard but the boat owner claims suitability the examiner should contact the BSS Office.

NOTE – fuel‐hose suitability may be supported by a written declaration from the hose manufacturer or supplier or, if appropriate, from the engine manufacturer/supplier or mariniser.

NOTE – the nylon type fuel‐hose material connecting small capacity diesel containersto the cold start facility on older diesel engines should be considered as exempt from this requirement.

NOTE – fuel hoses in permanently installed fuel systemsto outboard engines may be to type B1 or B2 of ISO 8469 (or be suitable proprietary outboard engine fuel hose), provided the hose and its connections are located in the open air and where any fuel spillage would drain overboard (e.g. self‐draining cockpits or outboard wells not enclosed by a canopy or other cover). Open vesselssuch as RIBs having a continuous deck or sole that is fuel‐tight to the interior of the vessel and bilge spaces, meet this requirement

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Quoting only part of my reply is misleading to the OP.

We are talking about the internal supply to an appliance, not an engine installation. If the appliance is approved for marine use, then the M.I's are applicable.

Edited by Ex Brummie
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I agree the MI's are relevant, but there is little or no guarantee that a BSS examiner will accept the result if the MI contradicts or appears not to conform with the BSS check list.

 

The weakest part of a p**s poorly run BSS examination system is its complete lack of quality control or quality assurance of the examinations or the examiners.

N

 

Edited by BEngo
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2 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

Quoting only part of my reply is misleading to the OP.

We are talking about the internal supply to an appliance, not an engine installation. If the appliance is approved for marine use, then the M.I's are applicable.

 

As discussed earlier, the BSS does not appear to list requirements for such installations, and the suggestion was that an examiner would (probably / possibly) fall back onto what instalation practices that ARE specified for a similar installation - that being the supply of the same fuel to an engine.

 

The examiner could also take the opposite view - "their are no requirements in the BSS so you can do what you want - use a bit of old hose pipe if you want"

 

 

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Funny but I was actually told that I could use 'any old hose' this weekend in conversation with a boatowner who has a Rayburn installed on his boat! I meant to say copper not brass pipe in my question, the heat is getting to me. The actual connections to the stove will be carried out by the engineer who commissions the Uno I'm just getting everything into place.

One further question on fuel lines. My engine has a mix of copper and rubber fuel line. It passed the BSS test last year no problems. Also I have the Fuel-Guard filter system fitted with a glass bowl and that didn't raise an eyebrow either!

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Surely the one part of ADE's reply that is apposite, is that if the boat owner claims it to be suitable, then the examiner should contact the BSS office. If a manufacturer supplies a part in an appliance, then it will be suitable for the purpose and in the case of a fuel hose, the standard will probably be superior to the ISO standards the BSS specifies. This is certainly the case of flexible hoses used in engine installation where vehicle requirements are higher than marine, but we still fit the relevant ISO which is not so readily available in the middle of the country, and is considerably more expensive.

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Trouble is,standards vary from one examiner to another.

What one examiner finds acceptable,another might throw up his hands in horror!

Before I bought my current boat,I looked at several and although they all had a BSC some of the things I saw had ME throwing up my hands in horror.

A couple of examples,

Rubber hose conecting the gas hob.

Non ISO 7840 petrol hose.

Petrol tank venting inside the cockpit.

Sliding windows sealed shut with silicone

Electrical wiring like a rat's nest.

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38 minutes ago, Clodi said:

Funny but I was actually told that I could use 'any old hose' this weekend in conversation with a boatowner who has a Rayburn installed on his boat! I meant to say copper not brass pipe in my question, the heat is getting to me. The actual connections to the stove will be carried out by the engineer who commissions the Uno I'm just getting everything into place.

One further question on fuel lines. My engine has a mix of copper and rubber fuel line. It passed the BSS test last year no problems. Also I have the Fuel-Guard filter system fitted with a glass bowl and that didn't raise an eyebrow either!

 

 

The BSS is a 'job for the boys' scheme and they are happy to let boaters pay their salaries.

On every BSS I have had I have had items which should have failed but passed, and, occasionally, items which should have passed have failed. The biggy was when the examiner failed the boat for not having an RCD and saying "its your choice, you paid in advance, so you can either pay for another examiner to do your BSS, or, you can fit an RCD and I'll give you a pass certificate'. A complaint to the BSS was a waste of breath - "we'll speak with the examiner and if we consider he needs further training we will suggest it to him"

 

Note that this is an ADVISORY (A after the section)

 

3.9.2 Do all a.c. electrical circuits pass through a consumer unit?      A

 

Check that all a.c. electrical circuits pass through a consumer unit (also known as fuse/circuit‐breaker box or distribution board).

All a.c. circuits must pass through a consumer unit.

NOTE ‐ examiners are encouraged to confirm during prior dealings with the owner, the location of the consumer unit.

Advice for owners – it is strongly advised that a Residual Current Device (RCD) is installed to provide appropriate electric shock protection on a.c. systems.

NOTE – for the purpose of this check residual current breakers with overcurrent protection (RCBOs) may be considered an acceptable alternative to a consumer unit.

NOTE – in cases where the only power source is via a shore‐power lead, an acceptable alternative to a consumer unit is a MCB or RCBO incorporated within the lead.

 

Pretty much the whole section on AC electrics is simply advisory (you look yourselves and check if there is an A or an R by each sub section)  You cannot be failed on an Advisory.

 

 

There are some good examiners who know the rules and apply them properly, but, the majority that I have had dealings with are appallingly ignorant.

 

Edit for mising lettrs

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Why would that be a BSS issue?

 

 

Especially since 'ventilation' is also only an Advisory in the BSS.

 

Note the A after each section number :

 

8.9 Ventilation

8.9.1A Is the vessel provided with adequate fixed ventilation?   

8.9.2A Are warning notices displayed on sea‐going boats with closable ventilators?   

 

8.10 Appliance flues and exhausts

8.10.1A Are all appliances requiring a flue or exhaust, fitted with one?   

8.10.2A Are all appliance flues and exhausts complete and in good condition?   

8.10.3A Do all appliance flues and exhausts terminate directly to outside air?   

8.10.4A Are all open flues to LPG appliances operating effectively?   

8.10.5A Are all solid fuel appliances free of unintended gaps?

 

With regard to windows, they are not included in any ventilation calculations :

 

NOTE – ventilators, doors, windows and hatches that can be closed without the use of tools must not be included in the calculations as these are not considered fixed ventilation

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I've never had a problem with BSS examiners, and have queried some points with them. I think a lot of the problems boaters have is that many of us were boating for many years before the BSS was introduced, so we know everything, and disagreements are made in less than polite terms. I know an acquaintance who cribbed about replacing his fuel flexies as they had not caught fire in 35 years!!!!!

Examiners also come in for some flack in much the same way that M O T testers do, and there are instances where after the sale of a boat, some 4 years after, examiners have been pursued legally over a refusal by one examiner of the others apparent earlier pass.

11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Why would that be a BSS issue?

It could be if it was also a forward escape means, but otherwise, no. Windows are never counted in ventilation requirements anyway, unless they are mechanically fixed open in a specific instance to provide say, ventilation for an open flued appliance.

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13 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

I've never had a problem with BSS examiners, and have queried some points with them. I think a lot of the problems boaters have is that many of us were boating for many years before the BSS was introduced, so we know everything, and disagreements are made in less than polite terms. I know an acquaintance who cribbed about replacing his fuel flexies as they had not caught fire in 35 years!!!!!

Examiners also come in for some flack in much the same way that M O T testers do, and there are instances where after the sale of a boat, some 4 years after, examiners have been pursued legally over a refusal by one examiner of the others apparent earlier pass.

 

My 'problem' and gripes with BSS examiners is their lack of knowledge in the actual rules of the BSS - and - what are rules, and what are guidelines.

Not "I've always done it this way" I'm talking about the current written rules to which they put their own interpretation.

 

Let me give another example :

I was buying a boat in 2015 and wanted a new BSS as part of the purchase.

 It passed with 'flying colours' despite me finding 8 failures. One of the most blatent failures was the fire extinguishers which were clearly printed with "Valid until 1st Jan 2010"

 

If a fire extinguishe has an expiry date, then it must be within date, if it does not have an expiry date then the examiner should look at the exterrnal condition and that the gauge (if any) is within the 'green area'.

 

All of the extinguishers on the boat were 5 year past their exiry date.

 

Mind you, I suppose it is easy to miss, being such small writing.

 

 

 

 

Extinguisher 1.jpg

 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

unless they are mechanically fixed open in a specific instance to provide say, ventilation for an open flued appliance.

 

Which as I stated above would only result in an advisory.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

My 'problem' and gripes with BSS examiners is their lack of knowledge in the actual rules of the BSS - and - what are rules, and what are guidelines.

Not "I've always done it this way" I'm talking about the current written rules to which they put their own interpretation.

 

Let me give another example :

I was buying a boat in 2015 and wanted a new BSS as part of the purchase.

 It passed with 'flying colours' despite me finding 8 failures. One of the most blatent failures was the fire extinguishers which were clearly printed with "Valid until 1st Jan 2010"

 

If a fire extinguishe has an expiry date, then it must be within date, if it does not have an expiry date then the examiner should look at the exterrnal condition and that the gauge (if any) is within the 'green area'.

 

All of the extinguishers on the boat were 5 year past their exiry date.

 

Mind you, I suppose it is easy to miss, being such small writing.

 

 

 

 

Extinguisher 1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Which as I stated above would only result in an advisory.

If you want it as ventilation for an open flued appliance, it would fail if not fixed as it ceases to be a window and is a necessary factor in the operation of the appliance, in which case it is not an advisory. Most examiners are not pedants and can be approached sensibly.

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20 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

If you want it as ventilation for an open flued appliance, it would fail if not fixed as it ceases to be a window and is a necessary factor in the operation of the appliance, in which case it is not an advisory. Most examiners are not pedants and can be approached sensibly.

 

 

Are you declaring an involvement or an 'interest' ?

 

You fail to note that the "required" ventilation for flues & exhausts are only an advisory.

See above quote (about 5 posts ago) from the BSS 

 

I have no problem with pedantry, my problem is with paying for a job to be done to written specifications but in many instances it is done by, seemingly ill-trained incompetents who fail to correctly follow the requirements.

 

Let me give you yet another example of my most recent BSS :

 

Examiner calls me from the marina (locked) gate, I walk up from my mooring and let him in.

General pleasantries as we walk back, 400 yds to my mooring.

Climbs on board sits in the saloon, a bit more chat,

 

Says - I can see you have a CO alarm so that fine, are your gas aplliances all compliant and labelled, is your fuel filler labelled ? Well It passed last time, so it'll be fine now - without moving from his seat he completed the paperwork and 'issued' the certificate.

 

Got up, left the boat and we walked 400 yards back up to the car park, opened the gates and after he had gone thru, closed the gates, noted on my watch that 20 minutes had passed since I had opened them to let him in.

 

In any other business I'm sure that would be some form of fraud - demanding money for services NOT rendered.

 

I knew my boat exceeded the BSS requirements and the only reason I needed the 'piece of paper' was to be able to licence the boat, but it is galling to pay £150  for a meaningless / worthless piece of paper.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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10 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

 If anyone is defrauded it would be CaRT.

 

What a load of crap - you are clueless, you must be an examiner.

 

C&RT still get their cut of the BSS fee from the examiner, the examiner made his money everyone is happy.

 

I had a worthless piece of paper that said "I have examined this boat today and tested it for compliance with the BSS requirements and it passes, and I certify it is safe for use etc etc"

 

Maybe you should check the piece of paper the examiner issues to you, and what he is signing  - read the first 9 words :

 

 Your boat has been examined by the BSS Examiner above against the category of checks relevant to the class of vessel indicated above.  The BSS Examination is a way of verifying that your boat meets your navigation or harbour authority’s minimum safety requirements.  The requirements help reduce the risks of fire starting & spreading, explosions, pollution and carbon monoxide poisoning. Visit boatsafetyscheme.org for more information.

 

Did the boat meet all the applicable minimum safety requirements? –

Yes

If yes, the expiry date is: 29 April 2023

Was a warning notice issued?  No     Was the examination terminated?  No:

 

Check Items marked as required (R) are linked to navigation authority requirements and must be addressed in order for the boat to pass.

Check Items marked (A) are advice. The boat owner bears the responsibility for the safety of the crew concerning advice items. These will not prevent a boat passing.

Comments marked as non-specific (NS) are observations from the examiner not linked to the BSS Examination Checking Procedures, but may still help to keep the crew safe if acted on.

 

How would he know it met all applicable safety requirements - he never moved out of the chair

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What a load of crap - you are clueless, you must be an examiner.

 

C&RT still get their cut of the BSS fee from the examiner, the examiner made his money everyone is happy.

 

I had a worthless piece of paper that said "I have examined this boat today and tested it for compliance with the BSS requirements and it passes, and I certify it is safe for use etc etc"

 

Maybe you should check the piece of paper the examiner issues to you, and what he is signing  - read the first 9 words :

 

 Your boat has been examined by the BSS Examiner above against the category of checks relevant to the class of vessel indicated above.  The BSS Examination is a way of verifying that your boat meets your navigation or harbour authority’s minimum safety requirements.  The requirements help reduce the risks of fire starting & spreading, explosions, pollution and carbon monoxide poisoning. Visit boatsafetyscheme.org for more information.

 

Did the boat meet all the applicable minimum safety requirements? –

Yes

If yes, the expiry date is: 29 April 2023

Was a warning notice issued?  No     Was the examination terminated?  No:

 

Check Items marked as required (R) are linked to navigation authority requirements and must be addressed in order for the boat to pass.

Check Items marked (A) are advice. The boat owner bears the responsibility for the safety of the crew concerning advice items. These will not prevent a boat passing.

Comments marked as non-specific (NS) are observations from the examiner not linked to the BSS Examination Checking Procedures, but may still help to keep the crew safe if acted on.

 

How would he know it met all applicable safety requirements - he never moved out of the chair

 

 

I'm not an examiner but do work in an environment where I certify standards. If you feel so aggrieved, tell CarRT and get another examination. Some years back, I along with several other local boaters received an advice that the examiner who issued our certificates had been struck off and we may wish to get another test. Did we? No. Just like you we kept our certificates for the remaining 3 years.

 

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