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How many is too many people?


NiceGuyEddie

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I'm just starting my boating adventure by renting a boat on the Thames. I've rented one of these in August: https://www.leboat.co.uk/boats/caprice

It sleeps 6, but along the route we're planning to meet up with possibly 6 friends.

Question is ... how many people can a boat like this have onboard safely? What would happen if I had 12 on board, even if stationary? Or for short cruises?

Thanks,

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2 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddie said:

I'm just starting my boating adventure by renting a boat on the Thames. I've rented one of these in August: https://www.leboat.co.uk/boats/caprice

It sleeps 6, but along the route we're planning to meet up with possibly 6 friends.

Question is ... how many people can a boat like this have onboard safely? What would happen if I had 12 on board, even if stationary? Or for short cruises?

Thanks,

The hire company may well have guidance, if you read all their bumph.

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4 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddie said:

I'm just starting my boating adventure by renting a boat on the Thames. I've rented one of these in August: https://www.leboat.co.uk/boats/caprice

It sleeps 6, but along the route we're planning to meet up with possibly 6 friends.

Question is ... how many people can a boat like this have onboard safely? What would happen if I had 12 on board, even if stationary? Or for short cruises?

Thanks,

 

 

Each type of boat has a capacity rating for each 'type of water'

For example mine is 14 persons on the canals, 12 people in estuaries and 10 people 'coastal' but only 8 people on the open sea.

(Categories are just approximate descriptions)

 

Tidal Rivers are normally category C

 

If you exceed the stated limits and anything happens then any insurance you have will be invalidated and you will be personally liable for any los to property or life.

 

Speak to the boat provider and get their written agreement as to how many people you can carry. 

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Almost certainly RCR/RCD compliant, so the maximum number should be on the RCR/RCD plate. Probably six. Anything more risks the insurance and LeBoat's wrath. If by some faint chance an EA patrol boat is about or in a lock, the EA may have something to say as well.

 

Check with the LeBoat. If I am right about the RCR/RCD you might be committing a criminal act if you exceed the plated number. However, I doubt anything would happen unless there was an accident or a report for speeding/rowdy behaviour.

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When a boat is built, by law, it must be tested and rated for the number of people it can safely carry, there are all sorts of calculations and tests - including having everyone stood on one side of the boat to see how much it leans over and the possibility of water flooding over the side.

 

3 Kids may be 'under average adult weight', but maybe you have 3 or 4 adults over the 'average weight' to make up the difference.

 

There is nothing we can do to 'make you' comply with the rules, it will down to you and your familes choice. At least you know why numbers are quoted, and what the implications of not complying are.
Your choice, your kids, your risk.

 

Just ask at LeBoat - they may say 'no problem', or are you afraid that they will say no, and mess up the arrangements to meet up and party with your mates ?

 

Would you squeeze 10 people into your 5 seater car and zoom off up the M1 ?

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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As already recommended "Just ask LeBoat" they are the only ones who can give you a definitive answer for your particular boat. 

However kudos for seeking  out  an answer before setting out on your holiday. Unfortunately as the answer has, as pointed out, legal implications only LeBoat can answer it. 

 

Out of interest my max capacity is 7 adult people. 

 

Enjoy your trip. 

Edited by reg
Checked max capacity and amended to 7
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17 minutes ago, reg said:

As already recommended "Just ask LeBoat" they are the only ones who can give you a definitive answer for your particular boat. 

However kudos for seeking  out  an answer before setting out on your holiday. Unfortunately as the answer has, as pointed out, legal implications only LeBoat can answer it. 

 

Out of interest my max capacity is 6 adult people. 

 

Enjoy your trip. 

 

And I ensured I bought a pre-RCD boat so there was no limitation on numbers apart from my own caution.

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3 hours ago, NiceGuyEddie said:

Thanks for the help. For clarity its on the non-tidal Thames near Reading. 3 of the people would be children.

 

The fact some are children does not matter, the RCD plate just shows the number of people, commonly 6, but obviously some boats are more up to 12.  However on our plate at least it does say “maximum people when under way 6”, so you would not be in violation of that if you were moored up.

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Overloading a boat with people who can move around is one of those low risk, high consequence areas. The reason that there are stability tests and corresponding limits on people numbers in the RCD is because people move around. Too many people all on one side at once and the risk of a sinking goes up. As an example of an incident in a country where these checks either don't exist, or were ignored see https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/southeast-asia/indonesia-boat-accident-selfie-capsize-b1848414.html

Your choice and you'd probably be fine, but the consequences of it going wrong would be devastating.

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15 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Overloading a boat with people who can move around is one of those low risk, high consequence areas. The reason that there are stability tests and corresponding limits on people numbers in the RCD is because people move around. Too many people all on one side at once and the risk of a sinking goes up. As an example of an incident in a country where these checks either don't exist, or were ignored see https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/southeast-asia/indonesia-boat-accident-selfie-capsize-b1848414.html

Your choice and you'd probably be fine, but the consequences of it going wrong would be devastating.

 

Not so sure about the red bit. LeBoat is likely to hire a flybridge cruiser, so 12 up top will make it tender to say the least.

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I don't think the hire company will be at all impressed if they find out and you didn't ask first. There are plenty of people sitting there waiting to have a go at hire companies and a 6 berth with 12 on board is an easy target. They could even terminate your hire.

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 The MCA regulations do not permit more than 12 passengers plus two crew on any vessel on all Inland waterways. Over that number the boat must be registered as a passenger carrying boat and, one of the the two crew members must possess a Boatmaster's licence.

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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12 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

The MCA regulations do not permit more than 12 passengers, plus two crew on any vessel on all Inland waterways. Over that number, the boat must be registered as a passenger carrying boat, and one of the the two crew members must possess the appropriate Boatmaster's licence.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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1 hour ago, Keeping Up said:

Yes that's a stupid rule but it represents a loophole that makes it easier to get the RCD

You will find that Aqualine use that as their limit , one reason being the boats are never float tested in Poland, shipped here and dropped in, the other being it absolves them of any future liability. Most 60ft Aqualines are 4,5 or max 6

 

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50 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

I've never seen a day boat with less than 6 people and sometimes more than 10 aboard and they are all about 15 foot long. No one seems to care what the RCD might say. 

Most day boats are rated for 12 total. I sat on one for Fox's with 11 other people for the stability test

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This was really helpful, thanks all.

I did talk to Le Boat today and as expected the number of people they allow is the number of beds.  It's not that I'm looking to take unnecessary risks or break the law or Le Boat policy. But I feel better informed having got the common sense check from experienced boaters here.

 

Interestingly, they tell me that there's no difference between a toddler or a heavyweight when it comes to counting people, and that I can take dogs of any size, and they don't count as people either. So there's little logic or actual compliance to float testing happening here, just policy.

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36 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddie said:

Interestingly, they tell me that there's no difference between a toddler or a heavyweight when it comes to counting people, and that I can take dogs of any size, and they don't count as people either. So there's little logic or actual compliance to float testing happening here, just policy.

 

As part of the test specifications total weights are also specified - the weight of 'a human' is taken to also include an amount of luggage.

 

They are mistaken - Children do count ................

 

From the RCD :

 

The boat builder can determine their own maximum load. If referring to the standard BS EN ISO 14946:2001, this states that the maximum load shall include the weight of the following:

a) The number of persons at 75 kg each (for adults - where children are carried as part of the crew a child’s mass shall be taken as 37.5 kg)

b) Basic equipment of (Hull length – 2.5)2 , but not less than 10 kg,

c) Stores and cargo (if any), dry provisions, consumable liquids and miscellaneous equipment not included in the light craft mass or in clause b above,

d) Consumable liquids (fresh water, fuel) in portable tanks filled to the maximum capacity,

e) Consumable liquids (fresh water, fuel) of permanently installed tanks filled to the maximum capacity,

 

The maximum load weight calculated is the Maximum Total Load (mMTL) to be used in the stability, freeboard and buoyancy calculations.

A breakdown of this maximum load should be included in the Owner’s Manual and information regarding the distribution of load may also be important.

 

The weight given in the Owner’s Manual for the maximum load and used for calculations might be different from the weight stated on the Builder’s Plate. For safety reasons to avoid this being British Marine Inland Boatbuilding CoP 2017 - 21 mistaken as weight allowance for luggage and other carry-on gear, the weight of all liquids in fixed fuel and water tanks is excluded from the weight shown on the Builder’s Plate.

 

When considering the maximum load that can be added to the empty boat, the empty boat is defined as the boat in the light craft condition as defined in BS EN ISO 8666. The important consideration to remember when assessing the boat weight and maximum load weight is that the following must always apply:

 

Loaded Displacement Mass (mLDC) = Light Craft Mass + Maximum Total Load (mMTL) Where the Light Craft Mass is as defined in BS EN ISO 8666 and the Maximum Total Load (m MTL) is the manufacturer’s maximum recommended load as defined above.

 

The Loaded Displacement Mass (mLDC), which is the sum of these two weights, is the weight of the boat in the fully loaded condition which is to be considered in the stability tests and calculations.

 

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They are mistaken - Children do count ................

 

What I meant to say is that the Le Boat policy is that all babies, children and adults, regardless of their actual weight, count as one person towards the boat's max occupancy.

 

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52 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddie said:

 

What I meant to say is that the Le Boat policy is that all babies, children and adults, regardless of their actual weight, count as one person towards the boat's max occupancy.

 

Which of course is their purgative

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