Questions to ask boat builders?

[Mike1951]

We are not exactly newbies to boating - we have owned a lot of boats and had 4 new boats built over the last 30 years of varying sizes in GRP and wood, but we have never had a steel narrowboat built. We are now visiting boat builders and looking at their specs. for a fully fitted narrowboat of about 52 feet. The specs seem to be much the same apart from fitout options. So what are the important questions to ask and why the huge variation in prices for boats of apparently similar spec.? What about engines - are any to be favoured or avoided? I only have experience of Volvos in a seagoing boat. We have done a lot of narrowboating over the years in hire boats and friends' boat, so we are clear about about layout etc. We will be using the boat for weekends/long weekends, for now at least, as we have a business to run Monday to Friday.

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Mike1951 said:

We are not exactly newbies to boating - we have owned a lot of boats and had 4 new boats built over the last 30 years of varying sizes in GRP and wood, but we have never had a steel narrowboat built. We are now visiting boat builders and looking at their specs. for a fully fitted narrowboat of about 52 feet. The specs seem to be much the same apart from fitout options. So what are the important questions to ask and why the huge variation in prices for boats of apparently similar spec.? What about engines - are any to be favoured or avoided? I only have experience of Volvos in a seagoing boat. We have done a lot of narrowboating over the years in hire boats and friends' boat, so we are clear about about layout etc. We will be using the boat for weekends/long weekends, for now at least, as we have a business to run Monday to Friday.

 

 

There is a wide variety of C-Class cars between Mercedes, Ford, Fiat, Volvo etc, all similar size (C-Class) but very different build quality - steel boat builders even have vastly different hull designs some of which handle like a brick, and some of which (almost) handle like a boat.

 

Some builders actually build boats in the 'quiet times' as a way of keeping the workforce busy,

 

Just one example :

 

 

 

Maybe list the builders you are thinking of using and folks 'in the know' can comment - remember that some builders do not do fit out, and some (alleged) builders do not make the hull, only doing the fit out.

 

Also be aware that from 2025 no new boat can be built unless it can be converted to Emission free propulsion, and from 2035 no new boat can be built that is not zero emission propulsion.

 

Buying a new boat now will result in you taking an enormous hit in depreciation as the new laws come into place. I'd strongly suggest you buy a quality secondhand boat, keep it for a few years to see which way the wind is blowing and then buy a new boat that will be future-proof.

 

Edit to remove spulling worms

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Mike1951 said:

We are not exactly newbies to boating - we have owned a lot of boats and had 4 new boats built over the last 30 years of varying sizes in GRP and wood, but we have never had a steel narrowboat built. We are now visiting boat builders and looking at their specs. for a fully fitted narrowboat of about 52 feet. The specs seem to be much the same apart from fitout options. So what are the important questions to ask and why the huge variation in prices for boats of apparently similar spec.? What about engines - are any to be favoured or avoided? I only have experience of Volvos in a seagoing boat. We have done a lot of narrowboating over the years in hire boats and friends' boat, so we are clear about about layout etc. We will be using the boat for weekends/long weekends, for now at least, as we have a business to run Monday to Friday.

 

I think all modern engines are much of a muchness, but one make stands out from the rest as having a huge markup for spares, so I would avoid that mariniser. They also fit some engines with gearboxes that are arguably not very good. That mariniser is Vetus but the basic Mitsubishi  engines are as good as any.

[matty40s]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think all modern engines are much of a muchness, but one make stands out from the rest as having a huge markup for spares, so I would avoid that mariniser. They also fit some engines with gearboxes that are arguably not very good. That mariniser is Vetus but the basic Mitsubishi  engines are as good as any.

But it's a lovely yellow colour so must be worth more.

[Bee]

Building narrowboats need not take a great deal of boat building skill or background, there are a few builders whose products I personally think are pretty poor designs but will last for years, there are other builders who know a thing or two about boats and their boats will last for years but be well worth repairing in the future and the rest are run of the mill boats that most of us would be quite happy with, these will also last for years and will be worth repairing but will never be 'classics'  These boats can be essentially very similar but the difference in price can be quality of fit out, taste and fashion of fit out and the sheer number of gadgets in the thing plus the paint job. Sometimes 'average' can be pretty good, sometimes not. I would be picky about insulation, having  floors that you could lift, an Aquadrive or Python drive coupling, a PRM gearbox or something robust and a personal bugbear, a fuel tank with access plate plus good internal painting of the bottom and epoxy below the waterline outside. Anything else can be fixed with DIY skills (usually!)

[system 4-50]

I'd add:

    plastic water tanks, with takeoff from the top

    all plumbing accessible

    most wiring accessible

    locker lids watertight

    gas bottles a straight vertical lift to get out

    hatch runners to drain out not in

    ceiling vents that never leak or produce condensation (not yet invented)

    all-steel doors

    sprayfoam throughout including baseplate

    automatic bridge-detecting self-lowering pram hood

    full-size standard gas cooker

    gas fridge

    2-pack top & bottom ie everywhere , ( - but maybe not the windows)

    lots of smaller burglar-proof portholes & no bus windows.  Maybe.  Not sure about this one.

    rattle-proof deckboard(s) - with lock(s).

    diesel tank filler to be a raised pipe not a flush deck job, with lock.

    tiller arc within boat profile.

    tiller height to suit me.

    accessible batteries.

    drain cock on the engine coolant lines/tanks so I don't have to disconnect a hose and drain into the bilge.

    no U bend on sink drain & large diameter drain piping.

    large shower (big enough for two, just).

    good-size tumblehome so I don't slip off.

    pump-out.

I'd like but won't get:

    anodes at 6ft intervals in dimples down the full length of the hull.

[Athy]

39 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

 

    automatic bridge-detecting self-lowering pram hood

  

    gas fridge

 

I don't think anyone has invented such a pram-hood yet!

 

As for gas fridges, are they still made? They're surely very old-fashioned nowadays.

[system 4-50]

One example from the Dometic range:

https://www.dometic.com/en-gb/outdoor/uk/products/food-and-beverage/fridges/motorhome-fridges/dometic-rm-5330-_-44193#specifications

with a good old-fashioned price: £1166.

 

Yes, its a motorhome badged model.  I haven't looked but I don't expect there is any manufacturer who is prepared to flag a gas fridge for marine use.  It is not worth the hassle.

Edited July 16, 2021 by system 4-50

[Jen-in-Wellies]

14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Some builders actually build boats in the 'quiet times' as a way of keeping the workforce busy,

 

Just one example :

 

 

 

Just to clarify. The picture is not of one of their narrowboats.

 

1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

    automatic bridge-detecting self-lowering pram hood

 

All pram hoods automatically self lower when they detect a bridge. 😀

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Just to clarify. The picture is not of one of their narrowboats.

 

It is, they just haven't stuck on the front pointy bit or the back roundy bit yet.

Items are 3/4 built for stock and depending on which orders come in determines how the stock is completed.

😜

 

 

I use to live about 1 mile away from the Dragon Boats 'factory' (I use the term loosely) and they built very nice boats, I dont think I've actually seen one of their boats since they moved production to the skip-factory.

 

I believe they are quite unique :

 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Chris G]

Large enough skin tank to cool the full power of the engine.

[Tracy D'arth]

A lip on the inside of the roof edge hand rail to stop me slipping off.

Swims that make the boat a pleasure to use.

Adequate sound proofing around the power unit - no matter what the energy used.

[Sea Dog]

3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

 

All pram hoods automatically self lower when they detect a bridge. 😀

And they look all the better for it afterwards too...  

Edited July 16, 2021 by Sea Dog
Quote trimming

[PD1964]

As Alan says have a look at second hand boats, looking at your info your in Dorset the nearest canal the K&A, I would say buy a good 52ft narrow, have it in a Marina your happy to drive to that’s not that far you end getting stressed with the distance/journey.

  Pick a Marina that has good facilities, many these days have a restaurant/pub, coffee shop and various other outlets, so if you just want to chill on the boat and not take it down the canal you can, maybe go for a breakfast and coffee, a pint and something to eat all within distance of the boat and just relax on the water.

  Find a Marina with various routes when you take the boat out, so you can explore more then one direction and not have to travel hours to get to a good location, as you say it’s mainly for weekends.

  Buy second hand and see how it goes, do you want the hassle of buying new, your already asking what engine? What’s next? You could tie yourself in knots on here, Just save all the time and stress and buy a nice second hand boat and go and enjoy and relax. Good luck.

  

[PeterF]

Some builders are quoting mid 2023 for their next slots, and that is for the start of the fit out not completion.

 

We bought a second hand boat and had a lot of good years on that before buying the current boat new so we had experience of exactly what we wanted before we committed to a new build.

[Tracy D'arth]

Half the fun is making a good secondhand boat the way you want it, a really good one is never finished but always a candidate for minor modifications

[Mad Harold]

6 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

I'd add:

    plastic water tanks, with takeoff from the top

    all plumbing accessible

    most wiring accessible

    locker lids watertight

    gas bottles a straight vertical lift to get out

    hatch runners to drain out not in

    ceiling vents that never leak or produce condensation (not yet invented)

    all-steel doors

    sprayfoam throughout including baseplate

    automatic bridge-detecting self-lowering pram hood

    full-size standard gas cooker

    gas fridge

    2-pack top & bottom ie everywhere , ( - but maybe not the windows)

    lots of smaller burglar-proof portholes & no bus windows.  Maybe.  Not sure about this one.

    rattle-proof deckboard(s) - with lock(s).

    diesel tank filler to be a raised pipe not a flush deck job, with lock.

    tiller arc within boat profile.

    tiller height to suit me.

    accessible batteries.

    drain cock on the engine coolant lines/tanks so I don't have to disconnect a hose and drain into the bilge.

    no U bend on sink drain & large diameter drain piping.

    large shower (big enough for two, just).

    good-size tumblehome so I don't slip off.

    pump-out.

I'd like but won't get:

    anodes at 6ft intervals in dimples down the full length of the hull.

This reminds me of an old Everley Brothers song.

 

Dream Dream Dream.😜

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, Athy said:

I don't think anyone has invented such a pram-hood yet! 

Was there one on Whitefield, she is for sale £125K

Edited July 16, 2021 by ditchcrawler

[Mike1951]

Thats a good list @System 4-50. Thanks. As to 2nd hand, we have had that discussion. My wife who is contributing her personal fortune is dead against it. We have a had a few new boats and are prepared for the hassle. We are already checking out marinas on the K&A within 90 minutes drive of here which is OK. I hate the look of pram hoods on a narrowboat. The one we had on our last boat new lasted about 5 years before it needed repairs and that's taking it off every winter. Scrubbing and re-proofing every year is not for me any more! If its that wet we arent going out! We often used to enjoy spending the night on in the marina on our last (seagoing) boat or finding a quiet spot for the night. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Mike1951 said:

Thats a good list @System 4-50. Thanks. As to 2nd hand, we have had that discussion. My wife who is contributing her personal fortune is dead against it. We have a had a few new boats and are prepared for the hassle. We are already checking out marinas on the K&A within 90 minutes drive of here which is OK. I hate the look of pram hoods on a narrowboat. The one we had on our last boat new lasted about 5 years before it needed repairs and that's taking it off every winter. Scrubbing and re-proofing every year is not for me any more! If its that wet we arent going out! We often used to enjoy spending the night on in the marina on our last (seagoing) boat or finding a quiet spot for the night. 

 

 

Beneteau - good boats.

We had one a few (many) years ago, and now have a Cat from Beneteau sister company 'Lagoon'

 

Lagoon - Groupe Beneteau (beneteau-group.com)

 

If the above post re build slots is accurate and you won't get your new boat until 2024 SERIOUSLY consider the propulsion plant.

Remember what I said above (several posts ago)

Edited July 16, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

8 minutes ago, Mike1951 said:

Thats a good list @System 4-50. Thanks. As to 2nd hand, we have had that discussion. My wife who is contributing her personal fortune is dead against it. We have a had a few new boats and are prepared for the hassle.

But are you prepared for the wait? That you are discussing questions for the boatbuilder suggests you are looking at a bespoke build rather than an off-the-shelf boat which a builder may have ready for you to take away now. Most of the builders of bespoke boats have a waiting list and it could be a year or more before they are able to even start building your boat. 

Whereas you could be off boating in your new-to-you secondhand boat in a matter of days.

[PD1964]

40 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But are you prepared for the wait? That you are discussing questions for the boatbuilder suggests you are looking at a bespoke build rather than an off-the-shelf boat which a builder may have ready for you to take away now. Most of the builders of bespoke boats have a waiting list and it could be a year or more before they are able to even start building your boat. 

Whereas you could be off boating in your new-to-you secondhand boat in a matter of days.

Don’t worry about it, with their “Off Shore” boats, another clueless couple coming onto the Canals, that will waste their money on a new build that will never leave the Marina, top tip wait till you see this years Crick Show winner???

let this couple discuss their off shore boats with Alan and think their something. Do they really think that putting a picture of their £XXXXXXK offshore boat means anything, just like no-ones bothered about £250K Cats on the canal.

Edited July 16, 2021 by PD1964

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Don’t worry about it, with their “Off Shore” boats, another clueless couple coming onto the Canals, that will waste their money on a new build that will never leave the Marina, top tip wait till you see this years Crick Show winner???

let this couple discuss their off shore boats with Alan and think their something. 

 

I realy don't think that outburst is warranted.

 

We have forum members that have come from Lumpy water to the canals, some that still do both, and an ever increaing number leaving the canals and moving to the lumpy stuff.

 

We are all boaters.

[PD1964]

I’ve seen enough of these people, let them waste their money and stay down south. Sorry.

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If the above post re build slots is accurate and you won't get your new boat until 2024 SERIOUSLY consider the propulsion plant.

Conversely, perhaps the last of the well proven diesels may well be in high demand on the second hand market for many years to come. The alternatives are not yet fully mature and are not coming along because they're a "no brainer" from an ownership perspective but rather are still sub optimal thus having to be forced in by legislation. Diesel power might be being phased out on the canals, but once seemingly outdated historic engines are still very much in demand. The Beta 43 might well be amongst their ranks in a few years time.