Engine Hours?

[paul68]

So in a few months I will be looking for my first narrowboat. I understand less miles on an engine is always better, assuming it has been properly maintained, so on a narrowboat engine what would be the acceptable running hours, I guess I'm trying to say what amount would make you walk away from a purchase?

[Tonka]

You are assuming it has an hour counter and has been there since build. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

An hours meter may have broken, been disconnected for ages, or have been replaced at some point in the engines life. This may not have been anything nefarious, just something that has happened.

[Tony Brooks]

You are also ignoring how it was run for those hours 10,000 hours on a hire boat and 10,000 hours at idle out of gear to charge batteries will produce very different engine conditions, its the hire boat for me.

[paul68]

So regarding all these points how do you know what the true running time on an engine is? 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, paul68 said:

So regarding all these points how do you know what the true running time on an engine is? 

 

Remove the engine and strip it down to its component parts and measure each 'wearing' part against its original specification, that will tell you the amount of wear it has, which is far more important that the number of hours it has done.

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, paul68 said:

So regarding all these points how do you know what the true running time on an engine is? 

Much will depend on how old the boat is and how many owners and how well the paper trail has been kept. For instance my last boat had one previous owner who kept meticulous records which I kept up with recording engine hours religously and oil changes. On the other hand my first boat was very old with unknown owners and totaly unknown engine hours. Most boats lie somewhere in between.

[paul68]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Remove the engine and strip it down to its component parts and measure each 'wearing' part against its original specification, that will tell you the amount of wear it has, which is far more important that the number of hours it has done.

So I do that with every boat I go and view do I?  

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Much will depend on how old the boat is and how many owners and how well the paper trail has been kept. For instance my last boat had one previous owner who kept meticulous records which I kept up with recording engine hours religously and oil changes. On the other hand my first boat was very old with unknown owners and totaly unknown engine hours. Most boats lie somewhere in between.

Thanks, that makes sense. A bit like a car then, service records.

[frahkn]

4 minutes ago, paul68 said:

So I do that with every boat I go and view do I?  

If you are going to be viewing a lot of boats you will need a better sense of humour.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, paul68 said:

So I do that with every boat I go and view do I?  

 

It is the only thing you can do if knowing the engine hours / wear is that important to you.

 

You can have an oil analysis done by the surveyor (at extra cost) which will give you a rough idea of the engine condition if you are basing your purchase on engine condition.

 

Example - there are 100s of companies offering the service :

Car Engine Oil Analysis | Best Oil Testing Lab UK | The Oil Lab

£59.99 for Platinum Oil Analysis Package – Engine –

 

• Spectrochemical scan to detect Wear and additive metals, Viscosity @ 40 C, Soot Contamination (TIM), Glycol , Water,Dirt, Total Base Number (TBN) and Fuel Dilution (fuel entering sump) Ideal for all round check for a maintenance program

[mrsmelly]

8 minutes ago, paul68 said:

 

Thanks, that makes sense. A bit like a car then, service records.

The problem with boats is that many people do their own servicing and you have to have a certain degree of trust in the vendor to be sure that the hours havnt suddenly been made up to look correct. The newer the boat you buy and the less previous owners make this an easier task. There are not records available such as with cars that you can check online ( Mot History ) that show mileage for instance as boats have more or less zero legislation.

[paul68]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

The problem with boats is that many people do their own servicing and you have to have a certain degree of trust in the vendor to be sure that the hours havnt suddenly been made up to look correct. The newer the boat you buy and the less previous owners make this an easier task. There are not records available such as with cars that you can check online ( Mot History ) that show mileage for instance as boats have more or less zero legislation.

Understand, I meant written service records but as you say they can be falsified. So I guess it's how the engine runs and sounds as much as anything?

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, paul68 said:

Understand, I meant written service records but as you say they can be falsified. So I guess it's how the engine runs and sounds as much as anything?

 

Over the last 40 years I have found that there is a distinct lack of acceptance of 'doing paperwork' by many on the Inland waterways and such things as 'logs' or 'service records', or even a bill of sale, proof of ownership, RCD certification or VAT Paid certificates are almost non-existent.

Yet, on 'Lumpy-Water' boats, it is the norm to have the full-suite of 'boats papers' and selling a boat without them is much more difficult.

 

The changes in the laws regarding the RCD mean that it is becoming even more important to ensure that you have the correct RCD documentation when you buy a boat. Several Boat Brokers are now refusing to handle boats without the correct RCD certification, you can have a PCA (Post Contruction Assessment) undertaken which will cost ~£1000 and if it passes then you will have the necessary RCD documentation, BUT, if it fails to pass it could be very expensive to correct / retro-fit and bring it up to RCD standards.

Pre 1998 built boats are not affected by the RCD

 

 

[paul68]

1 hour ago, frahkn said:

If you are going to be viewing a lot of boats you will need a better sense of humour.

believe me I do have a good sense of humour, I'm just asking for practical advice that I can use when looking for a boat.

Edited July 6, 2021 by paul68

[Bee]

Hard to tell. Most or many cars average approx. 35 mph throughout their lives, 1000 hours on a boat equals about 35,000 miles so 3000 miles could mean that the engine is getting middle aged but as its been under fairly constant and reasonable load it could well be perfectly ok for years. Anything much over 5000 hours has seen a lot of use but most engines can be rebuilt almost indefinately  and most engines are not highly sophisticated. If the boat looks OK there's a pretty good chance the engine is too and if it isn't its not the end of the world - Just think of it as an expensive way of gaining lots of mechanical knowlege - you'll soon have lots of knowlege about many things including how to take the toilet apart, why batteries just die, why windows, showers, ventilators,and many more things leak, and not forgetting several different types of mould. Good luck!

Edited July 6, 2021 by Bee

[booke23]

53 minutes ago, paul68 said:

So I guess it's how the engine runs and sounds as much as anything?

If you are unsure about the actual hours an engine has then this is certainly an important thing to look for. Does it start easily? Does it smoke when running (sometimes normal)? Does it sound ok? If you have doubts you could get an engineer to perform a compression test which would give a reasonable guide to how worn the engine is. 

[Tonka]

4 minutes ago, Bee said:

Hard to tell. Most or many cars average approx. 35 mph throughout their lives, 1000 hours on a boat equals about 35,000 miles so 3000 miles could mean that the engine is getting middle aged but as its been under fairly constant and reasonable load it could well be perfectly ok for years. Anything much over 5000 hours has seen a lot of use but most engines can be rebuilt almost indefinately  and most engines are not highly sophisticated. If the boat looks OK there's a pretty good chance the engine is too and if it isn't its not the end of the world - Just think of it as an expensive way of gaining lots of mechanical knowlege.

Surely an older engine-boat will have more hours so could have more than 5000 hours and have little use per year. 

[Bee]

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

Surely an older engine-boat will have more hours so could have more than 5000 hours and have little use per year. 

Could well do. I know how many hours my engine has done but all the other boats and engines I had no idea at all. In the end if it works OK it is OK.

[Tony Brooks]

If it starts well from cold, has at least 40 psi oil pressure for a more modern engine, and makes minimal exhaust smoke once warm across the rev and load range there is probably not a lot wrong with it.

[Guest]

You only have to look at the number of boats listed on Broker's web sites annotated with - Engine hours - not known to see it's very common for the counter to fail.

 

When we sold our boat ours was only working intermittently, it did appear to still be counting (we think!) but would often decide it wasn't going to display what the hours actually were. Very common with Isuzu panels apparently.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Bee said:

Could well do. I know how many hours my engine has done but all the other boats and engines I had no idea at all. In the end if it works OK it is OK.

 

I bought a 2003 boat in 2015, it had 72 hours on the engine. (it was an elderly mans 'escape', he never went anywhere, just ran the engines up every couple of months to warm them up)

 

I bought a 1998 boat in 2005 it had over 10,000 hours on the engine. The engine never used a drop of oil, didn't smoke and not a single drip or drop on the engine room floor (Lister LPWS4), it had been methodically serviced with oil and filter changes every 100 hours and the paperwork included all the receipts.

[BWM]

A well maintained engine will show it has been looked after, a clean bilge, recent filters, tidy wiring and pipework all point to a well kept boat. Any signs of a lazy owner should put you on guard.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, paul68 said:

Understand, I meant written service records but as you say they can be falsified. So I guess it's how the engine runs and sounds as much as anything?

If things look well looked after they probably are. Not a 100% guarantee. But I wouldn't want a 5 year old live aboard boat with 6000 hours on the clock because its would probably have run for 3 hours a day charging batteries, but one that was a holiday boat of the same age with say 3000 would be fine. You will see some 3 years old with only a couple of hundred hours where they have never been run and in a marina all their lives. 

[Tonka]

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If things look well looked after they probably are. Not a 100% guarantee. But I wouldn't want a 5 year old live aboard boat with 6000 hours on the clock because its would probably have run for 3 hours a day charging batteries, but one that was a holiday boat of the same age with say 3000 would be fine. You will see some 3 years old with only a couple of hundred hours where they have never been run and in a marina all their lives. 

But what about low hours use and no servicing can  be worse

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

But what about low hours use and no servicing can  be worse

 

That is probably the worse scenario. The 12 year old boat I bought with 73 hours on it had basically be stood with acidic carbonised oil in the sumps for many years - the problem being that the acids can etch into critcal components.

 

It actually took me many many hours of running, fresh oil, running fresh oil etc etc before it even started to perfom reasonably.