Norman 23 cruiser

[ACH]

Hello,

looking for any advice / help from Norman cruiser owners.  Currently researching weekend boat options and wondering realistically what the berth restrictions are.  Some say 3 berth, some 4.  Would only use weekends with small family 2 + 2 so an overnight stay. Are they feasible to sleep 4 ? 

[BilgePump]

Don't have one but would like one. There are a couple on the moorings near mine and I'd say yes, they are a great small boat for a young 2+2 family. When I was a kid, parents would take self and sister away on a similar sized boat for weeks at a time. Just looking at an advert for them from 1972/3 that talks of a 4/6 berth version of the 23 (assuming two are in the cockpit under the canopy). That would be a Mk1 deluxe version of the 23. The super deluxe version is stated as 4 berth. You can see a Mk1 23' interior on this broker's page  https://yorkshire.boatshed.com/norman_23_cabin_cruiser-boat-157420.html .  The V berth with infill is quite generous but the dinette conversion is narrow. This make a '3 adult berths in the cabin' description probably more accurate. If the kids are only very small or one wants to sleep in the cockpit (put an extra CO detector in there) then you will be laughing.

There are something like three versions of the Norman 23 and four of the Norman 22 as you can see on this page https://normanboats.net/range/norman_range.htm . 

[Ex Brummie]

Plenty of these have been used as family boats for many years. Generally the forepeak makes up 2 berths, and the dinette converts to a double. In good weather, the canopy can be an alternative for children.

[chevron]

Amaising amount of cupboard space. As long as you are organised will sleep four with little space for passing each other. good point is plenty of safe space when cruising out the back. Fantastic solid boats.

[Tom Morgan]

I have a Norman 23.  On mine, the dinette has been removed and replaced with a single bench seat, so my boat sleeps three.  When made up for three to sleep, there isn't much room left for all their things! (Where the dinette is still in place, the resulting double bed is narrow for adults, but it would be OK for 2 children, I think.)  As built, the N23 had quite a roomy cockpit, as Chevron says, and many of them have been converted to give comfy outdoor seating which, depending on how it was done, could be used as sleeping space for smaller people.  They are good, strong boats.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Tom Morgan

[Tonka]

I assume the Norman's are cheaper then the equivalent Freemans. We used to regularly have 5 on a Freeman 22 and I would sleep as kid in the cockpit

[Tom Morgan]

6 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I assume the Norman's are cheaper then the equivalent Freemans. We used to regularly have 5 on a Freeman 22 and I would sleep as kid in the cockpit

Can't say about prices but the N23 is certainly not as wide as a Freeman 22.  6' 10" for the Norman and 7' 6" for the Freeman, I think.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Tom Morgan

[Tonka]

7 minutes ago, Tom Morgan said:

Can't say about prices but the N23 is certainly not as wide as a Freeman 22.  6' 10" for the Norman and 7' 6" for the Freeman, I think.

 

Freeman did a wide beam at 7ft 6 and a narrow beam at 6ft 10

[Tom Morgan]

15 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Tonka - I have somehow lost your quoted bit!  I stand corrected - thanks.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Tom Morgan

[David Mack]

My parents had a 20ft GRP cruiser. V bunk in the front for Mum and Dad, which converted to a rather cramped dinette for 4. Behind that small galley on one side and toilet compartment opposite, then the cockpit with benches down either side on which my sister and I slept, under the canopy. Suited us at the time (late 60s), but would probably seem very basic to today's young families!

[BilgePump]

27 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Freeman did a wide beam at 7ft 6 and a narrow beam at 6ft 10

Judging by adverts in recent years it seems that the narrowbeam version commands a price premium over the wider one. Didn't a member on here buy one, having been assured that it was the narrow version only to find out that it didn't fit the narrow canal so was in fact the wider variant?

[Mad Harold]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

Freeman did a wide beam at 7ft 6 and a narrow beam at 6ft 10

The narrow beam Freeman is as rare as rocking horse droppings though.

[Mad Harold]

31 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Judging by adverts in recent years it seems that the narrowbeam version commands a price premium over the wider one. Didn't a member on here buy one, having been assured that it was the narrow version only to find out that it didn't fit the narrow canal so was in fact the wider variant?

That's true.Freeman only made a few 6'-10" mk 2 22's.All the other mk 1 and 2's were 7'-6".

Wonder how the bloke who bought the 22 mk 1 is doing.

I think I have seen it advertised for sale.

[Tonka]

What about a Nauticaus 27 or the smaller 22. They were narrobeam

[Bacchus]

Viking make good little narrow-beam inland cruisers too - if you're looking for alternatives. I used to have a 20' version which would certainly have been ok for week-ending with 2 adults/2 children, I know that we had four adults on there once, just for a night, and certainly had a good few days with three. Same arrangement (limited options...) of a v-berth with infill and a dinette opposite the galley which drops down to form a honeymoon-double

[Tacet]

5 hours ago, David Mack said:

My parents had a 20ft GRP cruiser. V bunk in the front for Mum and Dad, which converted to a rather cramped dinette for 4. Behind that small galley on one side and toilet compartment opposite, then the cockpit with benches down either side on which my sister and I slept, under the canopy. Suited us at the time (late 60s), but would probably seem very basic to today's young families!

You were lucky.  Our Norman 17 slept four regularly and five occasionally

[BilgePump]

1 minute ago, Tacet said:

You were lucky.  Our Norman 17 slept four regularly and five occasionally

Hell's bells! The N17 is like the earlier Callumcraft isn't it? Teeny tiny. I can barely manage on my own in a 19' Shetland but I think the N17 and Callumcraft have a bit more space inside the cabin. Four or five though would be a push. OTOH, I've got a 15' sailing boat that originally was optimistically marketed as a family 4 berth.

[Tacet]

19 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Hell's bells! The N17 is like the earlier Callumcraft isn't it? Teeny tiny. I can barely manage on my own in a 19' Shetland but I think the N17 and Callumcraft have a bit more space inside the cabin. Four or five though would be a push. OTOH, I've got a 15' sailing boat that originally was optimistically marketed as a family 4 berth.

Yes - I think the Callumcraft was later.  The Norman 17 was like the one here

https://normanboats.net/range/norman_range.htm

 

but the cabin was shorter and the cockpit was longer.  It was cruised extensively including Medway - Thames on a couple of occasions. 

[David Mack]

52 minutes ago, Tacet said:

You were lucky.  Our Norman 17 slept four regularly and five occasionally

We would have been 5 if you include the dog.

[BilgePump]

Went to the factory a couple of times in 1977/8? with my dad. It was magically chaotic, that in a few big sheds they were churning out some wonderful boats at a rate of knots. I think it was that place that gave me an affinity for the smell of polyester resin! We would have loved a 20' Conquest at the time but it was out of reach money wise so pops bought a 16' nondescript hull moulding from somewhere else and fitted it out.  Still love the Norman range though, even though never owned one....yet!

[Mad Harold]

21 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Went to the factory a couple of times in 1977/8? with my dad. It was magically chaotic, that in a few big sheds they were churning out some wonderful boats at a rate of knots. I think it was that place that gave me an affinity for the smell of polyester resin! We would have loved a 20' Conquest at the time but it was out of reach money wise so pops bought a 16' nondescript hull moulding from somewhere else and fitted it out.  Still love the Norman range though, even though never owned one....yet!

You can pick them up very cheaply.

An enginless Norman 20 project (basically a shell) can be had for a few hundred.

One ready to go (like mine)with a two year old canopy and two year old Tohatsu outboard plus tv and diesel heater I would think about £3500.

Some that are really nicely fitted out,for more.

Normans are generally regarded as the bottom end of the grp cruisers,unjustifiable in my opinion,as they are a sound design,and as Norman gave up in about 1980,they are still around in considerable numbers,so have proved very durable.

[BilgePump]

12 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

You can pick them up very cheaply.

An enginless Norman 20 project (basically a shell) can be had for a few hundred.

One ready to go (like mine)with a two year old canopy and two year old Tohatsu outboard plus tv and diesel heater I would think about £3500.

Some that are really nicely fitted out,for more.

Normans are generally regarded as the bottom end of the grp cruisers,unjustifiable in my opinion,as they are a sound design,and as Norman gave up in about 1980,they are still around in considerable numbers,so have proved very durable.

This year, I bet someone would pay more than 3.5k for yours, ready to go, but then you'd be boatless 😞 Did see a  very tidy shell in the water went for £550 at a marina near me on ebay in April, looked good value. Am just glad that I'd already got something similar size in the water and a mooring. Really would like a 22 or 23, empty shell, but considering that the market is bonkers this year, best just concentrating on what I've got. Norman seemed to have a load of bad luck towards the end, national economics, business cash flow and then in 1982 most of the moulds went up in flames in a factory fire. Pretty much the end for a marque that by endurance should have dispelled any 'bottom end' notion by now.