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Journalist request: What are the main issues faced for liveaboard parents bringing up children on boats?


Debbie Luxon

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Hi Canal World! I'm a reporter for Cambridge News. I'm looking to learn more about the issues parents face when bringing up children on boats full time. Is it a delight or a nightmare? Have you faced issues in accessing schooling or healthcare? What are the main pros and cons? I'm looking to hear from anyone with lived experience of parenting on a boat full time!

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1 hour ago, matty40s said:

Did you say you were a lazy reporter....

Get out there on the towpaths of Cambridge, Milton Keynes and London and ask people with kids direct.

Cambridge News is part of a conglomerate that runs over a hundred papers  and probably employs one full time journalist in Cambridge, if that. I don't think my local paper has even one. As a "community journalist", she'd cover virtually everything. Anything that gets you info a bit quicker for an article is a bonus.

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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24 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Cambridge News is part of a conglomerate that runs over a hundred papers  and probably employs one full time journalist in Cambridge, if that. I don't think my local paper has even one. As a "community journalist", she'd cover virtually everything. Anything that gets you info a bit quicker for an article is a bonus.

One of the articles highlighted on here was created by another lazy journalist who sent a spreadsheet out to various boating businesses telling them (yes, not asking) to fill it it and return it within a very short deadline. It was asking for detailed confidential business information regarding the "new" boom in boat sales.

It wasn't completed by 2 businesses I am aware of, although one of them was decent enough to call him back, tell him why, and give him a brief overview of the trade.

 

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In the olden days, journalists used to phone people up and ask them stuff. Over the last year, many heavy duty interviews have been done over Zoom or by email. I don't think it's necessarily lazy to use all the technology at your disposal,  especially when your employer simply doesn't provide the resources for proper journalism, which, if you know anything about the local paper industry, they don't.

There again, you may be right, but having looked at the range of stuff she covers,  I think you possibly aren't in this particular case.

Won't get much help on here though, I don't think we've got anyone raising families on boats. NBTA be better, though a somewhat biased response should be expected!

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12 hours ago, matty40s said:

Did you say you were a lazy reporter....

Get out there on the towpaths of Cambridge, Milton Keynes and London and ask people with kids direct.

No, Debbie did not say that, and there's no sign that she is.

Seeking information by phone, or more recently by e-mail, has long been standard practice in the world of journalism. Asking for it on here is a simple extension of that technique, and shows initiative because through here Debbie can contact a number of people at once, rather than just one at a time.

So I would say no, she's not a lazy journalist, she's a smart one.

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3 hours ago, Athy said:

No, Debbie did not say that, and there's no sign that she is.

Seeking information by phone, or more recently by e-mail, has long been standard practice in the world of journalism. Asking for it on here is a simple extension of that technique, and shows initiative because through here Debbie can contact a number of people at once, rather than just one at a time.

So I would say no, she's not a lazy journalist, she's a smart one.

Have a virtual greenie.

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If they don’t moor in a marina but claim to be cc’s then they living the wrong life style you can’t be a full time cruisers with kids in school. Home schooling is a option lesson one how to give the finger to Crt licence  ranger. Lesson two it’s your right to moor where you like for as long as you like. Lesson three  leave as much s#*t and rubbish on the tow path as you like. Lesson four shout at me for going to fast past their rusted tub with no licence, insurance or boat safety cert. 

Forgive if I have missed your favourite gripe about  these squatters that take up mooring space for years together without moving one inch. 
Just got to Bristol today after doing the K&A which had a serious issue with this. 
 

rant over

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9 hours ago, Oddjob said:

you can’t be a full time cruisers with kids in school.

 

 

C&RT disagree with this and have accepted a reduced cruisng range of 3 miles for boaters with school aged children.

 

This followed a complaint by a K&A boater to her MP, who complained to C&RT who 'amended' the rules and only required travelling a 'distance' during shool holidays.

Presumably any CC boater could now claim discrimination if they have enforcement action taken against them for shuttling backwards and forwards along 3 miles of canal, and only make a longer journey in the holidays.

 

In fact, it flies in the face of the instructions given by Simon Cadek the Head of Enforcement in London :

 

For the avoidance of doubt, a small number of long journeys over a short period of time, followed or preceded by cruising in a small are of the network would not generally satisfy the Trust that you are engaged in bona fide navigation.

 

 

I have previously posted the exchange of letters between C&RT and the MP and the charts showing acceptable movements, examples :

 

 

 

Screenshot (392).png

Screenshot (394).png

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But the detail of that response makes it quite clear that the boater still has to make a reasonable move every 15 days, albeit within the 3 - 4 mile radius. What this emphatically excludes are those who stay put or only go up to a water point and back. 

 

I would say that CaRT have done quite well in maintaining their basic position and not acceding to permanent unlicensed permanent mooring.

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25 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

But the detail of that response makes it quite clear that the boater still has to make a reasonable move every 15 days, albeit within the 3 - 4 mile radius.

 

 

Indeed, this is another example based on school / centre at Northchurch

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Screenshot (447).png

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9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

C&RT disagree with this and have accepted a reduced cruisng range of 3 miles for boaters with school aged children.

 

This followed a complaint by a K&A boater to her MP, who complained to C&RT who 'amended' the rules and only required travelling a 'distance' during shool holidays.

Presumably any CC boater could now claim discrimination if they have enforcement action taken against them for shuttling backwards and forwards along 3 miles of canal, and only make a longer journey in the holidays.

 

In fact, it flies in the face of the instructions given by Simon Cadek the Head of Enforcement in London :

 

For the avoidance of doubt, a small number of long journeys over a short period of time, followed or preceded by cruising in a small are of the network would not generally satisfy the Trust that you are engaged in bona fide navigation.

 

 

I have previously posted the exchange of letters between C&RT and the MP and the charts showing acceptable movements, examples :

 

 

 

Screenshot (392).png

Screenshot (394).png

To be clear, 5km radius is 6 miles "cruising range" not 3 miles, as CART define it. Let's not give them another inch so they can take another mile.

 

They have made a rod for their own back by giving in to the rule-benders, in direct contradiction to their own policy which says that cruising like this would not "satisfy the trust", and which also says that a CC license is not for people who want to do this -- it even mentions staying near a school as an example.

 

The real problem CART now have is enforcing this loophole, because instead of something easy to check (e.g. "you've stayed in this area for 14 days") they've now got something where it;s very difficult to prove that the CCer has broken the rule and very easy for the CCer to claim that they haven't (e.g. "We went away longer distances but you didn't record it"). CART's example cruising pattern is pretty and logical but pretty much impossible to prove either way.

 

CART are trying to be "fair" -- well, at least to the rule-benders, less so to everyone else -- but the end result is a complete mess with holes that rule-bending CCers can drive a barge through...

Edited by IanD
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1 minute ago, IanD said:

To be clear, 5km radius is 6 miles "cruising range" not 3 miles, as CART define it.

 

 

I have argued this (on this forum) so many times I've given up.

 

I argue range is the distance from your start point to one extreme (ie radius). Other forumites have said NO, it is the distance from one extreme to the other.

 

Anyway, see the presentation I posted just above your post where C&RT detail and give examples of which mooring spots / distances would be acceptable every 2 weeks

 

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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

To be clear, 5km radius is 6 miles "cruising range" not 3 miles, as CART define it. Let's not give them another inch so they can take another mile.

 

They have made a rod for their own back by giving in to the rule-benders, in direct contradiction to their own policy which says that cruising like this would not "satisfy the trust", and which also says that a CC license is not for people who want to do this -- it even mentions staying near a school as an example.

 

The real problem CART now have is enforcing this, because instead of something easy to check ("you've stayed in this area for 14 days") they've now got something where it;s very difficult to prove that the CCer has broken the rule and very east for the CCer to claim that they haven't ("We went away longer distances but you didn't record it").

 

CART are trying to be fair, but the end result is a complete mess with holes that rule-bending CCers can drive a barge through...

I thought that what CaRT were doing was describing what might be acceptable  to The Board, as a plan for cruising (NB not mooring!). Whether an actual pattern satisfies may well be different, esp if someone attempts to push the boundaries - eg by staying 4 weeks in each place rather than 2. It is easy for CaRT to prve tjhat a boater has broken the rule as the only rule is that they have to satisfy the Board and if they fail then it only takes the Board (ie CaRT) to say so. The only challenge then is to prove that as a public body (ish) they acted unreasonably.

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I have argued this (on this forum) so many times I've given up.

 

I argue range is the distance from your start point to one extreme (ie radius). Other forumites have said NO, it is the distance from one extreme to the other.

 

Anyway, see the presentation I posted just above your post where C&RT detail and give examples of which mooring spots / distances would be acceptable every 2 weeks

 

Either way, their example is a 3 mile radius or 6 mile diameter.

 

The cruising pattern is very pretty and acceptable if CCers actually stuck to it, but the chances of CART being able to check or enforce it are pretty much zero. If a boater claimed they'd stuck to this pattern and produced nice pretty Excel sheets to show this, then CART would have to prove that they hadn't to refuse a license, and they can't possibly do this given the number of checkers they have on the system because it means recording the position of the boat at almost daily intervals to prove where it has -- or hasn't been.

 

It's a nice idea in theory, but wildly open to abuse in practice.

Edited by IanD
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I have argued this (on this forum) so many times I've given up.

 

I argue range is the distance from your start point to one extreme (ie radius). Other forumites have said NO, it is the distance from one extreme to the other.

 

Anyway, see the presentation I posted just above your post where C&RT detail and give examples of which mooring spots / distances would be acceptable every 2 weeks

 

The CaRT statement seems entirely clear to me; ". . . within  3-4 miles of a canal-side school . . ." ie that distance is a 'radius' (save that the boat can only go where he water goes!) In other words, if the school is on a canal stretch with no other branches then the boater would be expected to go at least 3-4 miles in one direction and in the other, just going one way is unlikely to satisfy the Board.

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4 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

The CaRT statement seems entirely clear to me; ". . . within  3-4 miles of a canal-side school . . ." ie that distance is a 'radius' (save that the boat can only go where he water goes!) In other words, if the school is on a canal stretch with no other branches then the boater would be expected to go at least 3-4 miles in one direction and in the other, just going one way is unlikely to satisfy the Board.

 

 

I agree.

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From CART:

 

"Our team looks at the range of the furthest points your boat has visited over the year. If you’re cruising only a small range, you may run into trouble when it comes to renewing your licence. What's important is that you're genuinely cruising, we would expect a range of 20 miles (32km) or more"

 

By their definition (as explained in detail elsewhere), the range on their own drawing -- the distance between the furthest points -- is 6 miles.

 

Alan may believe something different from CART if he wants to... ?

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2 hours ago, IanD said:

From CART:

 

"Our team looks at the range of the furthest points your boat has visited over the year. If you’re cruising only a small range, you may run into trouble when it comes to renewing your licence. What's important is that you're genuinely cruising, we would expect a range of 20 miles (32km) or more"

 

By their definition (as explained in detail elsewhere), the range on their own drawing -- the distance between the furthest points -- is 6 miles.

 

Alan may believe something different from CART if he wants to... ?

You have   remember that in addition to the term time shuffle, there is a requirement to go much further afield in the holidays. 

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11 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

You have   remember that in addition to the term time shuffle, there is a requirement to go much further afield in the holidays. 

 

 

But just to re-quote what the head of enforcement said in an email to boaters :

The email is on public record as part of advice to boaters in the London Boaters Facebook group.

 

 

Movement: Continuous Cruiser Licences are intended for bona fide (genuine) navigation around the network, rather than for a boat to remain in one mooring spot, place neighbourhood or area.

 

Range: by range we mean the furthest points a boat has travelled on the network, not merely the total distance travelled. While the BW act does not stipulate what that distance is the Trust has previously said that anyone travelling a range of less than say 20 miles (32km) would struggle to satisfy the Trust that they are engaged in bona fide navigation and that normally we would expect a greater range.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, a small number of long journeys over a short period of time, followed or preceded by cruising in a small are of the network would not generally satisfy the Trust that you are engaged in bona fide navigation.


We would expect boats on these licences to move around the network such that they don’t gravitate back to favoured areas too often i.e. in a way that it’s clear to us that they’re living in a small area of the waterway.
The basic principle of this is that these licences are not intended for living in an area and if it looks like a boat is habitually returning to a particular part of the waterway then this would not generally satisfy the Trust.
Within an acceptable range we’d expect a genuine movement, so for example it would not satisfy the Trust if a boat went on a 60 mile trip during the course of say two weeks, then returned to cruise in an area of say 5 miles the remainder of the time (figures are examples only).
 

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