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Big Changes In Milton Keynes


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On 03/07/2021 at 22:11, CompairHolman said:

Can someone explain what the penalty is for overstatying on a reduced time mooring?

 

Fine?   CRT cannot issue fines.

 

( CRT has never pursued the stated £25 per day in court and the only ones paid were because the payee was not told it was voluntary ) 

 

Charge?  A charge has to be set out under specific conditions to be a charge. 

 

Revoke licence?  Nope, a PBL can only be revoked by breaching any of the three conditions of the 1995 BW act section 17(3) nothing else.

 

Breach of terms and conditions of " licence contract "? Nope, no contract can override statute ( the statute above) 

 

Add charge to your licence fee? Nope, illegal. 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/10-11/46/section/43

See sub-section 3

Answers most of the above.

 

Bod

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9 hours ago, CompairHolman said:

It doesn't, stop using it as justification for everything. 

 

 

I'm not justifying it, C&RT are using it, to allow them to do what they want.

If you see a flaw in the idea, please say.

There are many who would be grateful for the heads-up.

 

Bod.

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6 hours ago, Bod said:

I'm not justifying it, C&RT are using it, to allow them to do what they want.

If you see a flaw in the idea, please say.

There are many who would be grateful for the heads-up.

 

Bod.

I feel it's a mistake in the wording which is now open to interpretation, even just on the common-sense basis that no public body ( BW ) would be given unlimited powers to do what it wants , never using those powers and instead go to the huge trouble of seeking a further act to set out licence conditions if they already had the power to do that since 1962. Unfortunately no one is willing to undertake the level of work to settle the question via judicial review , thought Nigel Moore has gone into it. It's quite telling that CRT has never taken any issue related to this to court and drops any overstaying charge if challenged ?

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3 hours ago, CompairHolman said:

I feel it's a mistake in the wording which is now open to interpretation, even just on the common-sense basis that no public body ( BW ) would be given unlimited powers to do what it wants , never using those powers and instead go to the huge trouble of seeking a further act to set out licence conditions if they already had the power to do that since 1962. Unfortunately no one is willing to undertake the level of work to settle the question via judicial review , thought Nigel Moore has gone into it. It's quite telling that CRT has never taken any issue related to this to court and drops any overstaying charge if challenged ?

It boils down to what is meant by “services and facilities”. So for example for CRT operated permanently moorings, this applies. Ditto Electricity bollards. It could apply eg to sanitary stations/services. But clearly it isn’t intended to refer to navigation of the canal or being on it - that is not a “service” or “facility” - for the reasons you give (ie what would be the point of any further legislation?)

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On 06/07/2021 at 18:04, nicknorman said:

It boils down to what is meant by “services and facilities”. So for example for CRT operated permanently moorings, this applies. Ditto Electricity bollards. It could apply eg to sanitary stations/services. But clearly it isn’t intended to refer to navigation of the canal or being on it - that is not a “service” or “facility” - for the reasons you give (ie what would be the point of any further legislation?)

So you don't believe the claim on the licence application form that licences are issued under the 1962 TA ?

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Just now, CompairHolman said:

So you don't believe the claim on the licence application form that licences are issued under the 1962 TA ?

I don’t know the context of that claim. We took out our first licence in 2011 and ever since, it has auto-renewed. But anyway, licences are regulated by the 1995 act. And I’ve just looked at the licence application form, it makes no mention of the 1962 TA.

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It used to be the case that the wording of statutes had to be construed in isolation. This practice was changed a couple of decades ago (Pepper v. Hart, I don't recall the reported case reference off-hand), which held that the content of the relevant parlamentary proceedings in Hansard (and possibly other relevant matter) could be used to interpret obscure or unclear wording. However, if the wording is clear, then it will usually be construed literally, even if the result it leads to is what one judge described as "bizarre". I fear that common sense tends to be as rare as hens' teeth when the courts construe the provisions of Acts of Parliament.

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On 03/07/2021 at 12:19, CompairHolman said:

I've never seen " continuous lines of slum housing boats" that may have occurred in specific places at some times but it's not the norm. 

There is much of London that would fit with the above description, and this line has nearly reached Watford. Not all craft are dilapidated but plenty are. Areas around Bath, and several other locations are similarly affected. 

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18 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I don’t know the context of that claim. We took out our first licence in 2011 and ever since, it has auto-renewed. But anyway, licences are regulated by the 1995 act. And I’ve just looked at the licence application form, it makes no mention of the 1962 TA.

Sorry I meant the terms and conditions that are agreed to on the application and renewal not the form itself. 

 

GENERAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR BOAT LICENCES 
(EXCLUDING BUSINESS LICENCES) 
Introduction 
In accordance with s.43(3) of the Transport Act 1962, boat licences are subject to the conditions which apply to the Use of a boat on any Waterway which We own or manage. These are necessary to protect third parties and to help Us manage the Waterways well for the benefit of all Our users. If You breach any 
of these Conditions the Trust can terminate Your Licence, which may result in the removal of Your boat from Our Waterways.

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3 hours ago, CompairHolman said:

Sorry I meant the terms and conditions that are agreed to on the application and renewal not the form itself. 

 

GENERAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR BOAT LICENCES 
(EXCLUDING BUSINESS LICENCES) 
Introduction 
In accordance with s.43(3) of the Transport Act 1962, boat licences are subject to the conditions which apply to the Use of a boat on any Waterway which We own or manage. These are necessary to protect third parties and to help Us manage the Waterways well for the benefit of all Our users. If You breach any 
of these Conditions the Trust can terminate Your Licence, which may result in the removal of Your boat from Our Waterways.

Oh that one, as we know it’s bullshit and totally unenforceable. And CRT knows it. But as I said, whilst I may have agreed to some Ts and Cs back in 2011, I certainly haven’t agreed to any later versions, it just autorenews and the money is collected by DD.
Just the random capitalisation disqualifies it as being written by a child. We need to set Athy on them, he could give them a good caning for their inability to write properly.

  • Greenie 1
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