Tidy up/improve my electrics

[GUMPY]

Check the size of your nuts carefully.

Some batteries use 8mm and some use 5/16unf the difference is subtle but difficult if you get it wrong.

[robtheplod]

Looking further into this theres not much extra just to get new battery terminals complete. I'll get some with longer screw threads!

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Looking further into this theres not much extra just to get new battery terminals complete. I'll get some with longer screw threads!

 

 

 

Just remember that you are limited to the number of wires on the terminals, why would you need longer threads ?

 

Any post 1998 boat must comply with this, and it is recommended for all boats.

 

 

10.8 No more than four conductors shall be secured to one terminal stud

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

32 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Looking further into this theres not much extra just to get new battery terminals complete. I'll get some with longer screw threads!

You probably know this already. The positive and negative battery terminals are slightly different sizes and the clamp terminals are correspondingly "handed". Make sure you get the appropriate and equal numbers of each.

[robtheplod]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Just remember that you are limited to the number of wires on the terminals, why would you need longer threads ?

 

Any post 1998 boat must comply with this, and it is recommended for all boats.

 

 

10.8 No more than four conductors shall be secured to one terminal stud

 

This is just keeping in mind the size of the connections being 95mm cable lugs.... just these will be connected.

[Batavia]

On 09/07/2021 at 14:16, Tracy D'arth said:

I want to see how you are going to connect things that have terminals built in with 95mm cable. 

Reduced palm tube terminals might help. They are typically about 70% of the width of a normal tube terminal, which sometimes can make all the difference!

https://www.ctcukltd.co.uk/product/reduced-palm-copper-tube-terminals-narrow-palm/

[robtheplod]

Hello all!

 

Just had the hot weekend on the boat and further investigating my electrics in prep to tidy it up. I have a SmartGuage which i understand can give detailed info on my batteries. I've had a look around it and its not exactly easy to use so just wanted to check if its still one of the recommended ways of monitoring batteries?  I had planned on getting a Victron BMV-712 so now at a crossroads...

 

It seems to be the one with the VSR controlled by the SmartBank device which comes as part of the kit?  Not a fan of anything claiming to be Smart as it often isn't (like motorways!), so just after opinions??  I presume i can fit a VSR if this is removed without all the Smart gadgetry? 

 

Persevere and learn how to use this or replace...?

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by robtheplod

[GUMPY]

If you haven't got solar then SG is the most accurate device going. Once fitted its so simple, press the middle button for battery % and the others for voltages, cant get simpler than that. It also doesnt go out if sync unlike most other battery management systems.

[Tony Brooks]

But arguably tends to be inaccurate while the batteries are on charge, but unlike most other types puts itself right after a bit of discharge.

 

The BVM provides an accurate ammeter as well as a voltmeter and the Ah discharged is accurate, but the other scales will, in most boaters' hands, tell larger and larger lies until you ruin the batteries by consistently undercharging them. If you read, fully understand the manual, and ensure you regularly FULLY charge the batteries and then recalibrate the BVM then you will minimise the inaccuracies though.

 

Personally I would keep the Smartguage for % charged and volts and to compliment it fit a decent shunted ammeter to decide when the batteries are as fully charged as is reasonable.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

If you haven't got solar then SG is the most accurate device going. Once fitted its so simple, press the middle button for battery % and the others for voltages, cant get simpler than that. It also doesnt go out if sync unlike most other battery management systems.

 

And used in conjunction with an amphour counting meter like a BMV can be used to accurately assess battery capacity.

[nicknorman]

Yes a combination of smartgauge and BMV 712 is about as good as it gets. Well unless you have lithium batteries of course. I now have one redundant Smartgauge!

[robtheplod]

thanks for all the replies, very much appreciated. I think i need to spend a bit of time getting to know it before making a final decision......

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, robtheplod said:

It seems to be the one with the VSR controlled by the SmartBank device which comes as part of the kit?  Not a fan of anything claiming to be Smart as it often isn't (like motorways!), so just after opinions??  I presume i can fit a VSR if this is removed without all the Smart gadgetry? 

 

Persevere and learn how to use this or replace...?

 

The split charge relay is in fact a contactor that is really just a heavy-duty relay but controlled by the Smartbank which in its day was arguably the premier bit of kit for split charging. In essence, it is a voltage controlled relay, except the voltage is read by the Smartbank rather than small electronics inside a VSR case.

 

The Smartgauge does not need the Smartbank to function, but I think the Smartbank does need the Smartguage. Not 100% sure on that though.

 

While its working  why mess with it and spend money and when/if it stops working I would suggest is the time to keep the Smartguage  and fit a VSR.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The split charge relay is in fact a contactor that is really just a heavy-duty relay but controlled by the Smartbank which in its day was arguably the premier bit of kit for split charging. In essence, it is a voltage controlled relay, except the voltage is read by the Smartbank rather than small electronics inside a VSR case.

 

The Smartgauge does not need the Smartbank to function, but I think the Smartbank does need the Smartguage. Not 100% sure on that though.

 

While its working  why mess with it and spend money and when/if it stops working I would suggest is the time to keep the Smartguage  and fit a VSR.

As an aside Athy, your avatar is back to normal on this post.

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Personally I would keep the Smartguage for % charged and volts and to compliment it fit a decent shunted ammeter to decide when the batteries are as fully charged as is reasonable.

Which is what I have but the ammeter is pretty redundent as I usually cruise for 4 hrs a day and start at no less than 85% so batteries are normally fully charged when I stop. 

[PeterF]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The BVM provides an accurate ammeter as well as a voltmeter and the Ah discharged is accurate, but the other scales will, in most boaters' hands, tell larger and larger lies until you ruin the batteries by consistently undercharging them. If you read, fully understand the manual, and ensure you regularly FULLY charge the batteries and then recalibrate the BVM then you will minimise the inaccuracies though.

 

After having one installed on my new boat and thoroughly reading the manual I was surprised to find that the default settings on the BMV reset the SOC to 100% when the charge voltage exceeds 13.2V and the tail current is 4.0%. If you run it at default settings and knew no better you could be enticed to stop charging well short of full if you saw 100% on the meter. I set the synchronise to 100% to 14.2V and 0.8% tail current after seeing your similar warnings in other threads.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Which is what I have but the ammeter is pretty redundent as I usually cruise for 4 hrs a day and start at no less than 85% so batteries are normally fully charged when I stop. 

 

Unless you have lithiums, I doubt that. Maybe 90% charged but probably not  lot more. We know the Smartguage manual tells you that it is not fully accurate when charging is taken place and it seems to overstate the state of charge until it has discharged a bit.

[GUMPY]

19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Unless you have lithiums, I doubt that. Maybe 90% charged but probably not  lot more. We know the Smartguage manual tells you that it is not fully accurate when charging is taken place and it seems to overstate the state of charge until it has discharged a bit.

I dont doubt that you are mistaken about the state of charge of my batteries after 4hrs charging.

I check the Volt / Amp meters occasionally when I stop and they are often reading 14.42 v and less than 1amp...........

BTW they are calibrated meters against a known source so they are telling the truth.

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I dont doubt that you are mistaken about the state of charge of my batteries after 4hrs charging.

I check the Volt / Amp meters occasionally when I stop and they are often reading 14.42 v and less than 1amp...........

BTW they are calibrated meters against a known source so they are telling the truth.

 

 

 

If you have a 1 amp tail current then I apologise, they must be all but totally charged bur four hours into lead acids seems a very short time to me.

[ditchcrawler]

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

If you have a 1 amp tail current then I apologise, they must be all but totally charged bur four hours into lead acids seems a very short time to me.

I get about the same but only do a shallow discharge overnight

 

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

If you have a 1 amp tail current then I apologise, they must be all but totally charged bur four hours into lead acids seems a very short time to me.

 

47 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I get about the same but only do a shallow discharge overnight

 

I think Brian’s is the relevant point. If LA batteries are well discharged, say down to 50%SoC, then it takes a very long time to properly charge, say 8 hrs or more. This is because the chemicals deep inside the plates have reacted during discharge, and they need to reverse-react to fully charge, which takes time due to their “inaccessibility”.

 

But if a battery is only discharged a bit then no discharge reaction deep within the plates has taken place and so recharging happens quite quickly. The extreme example of this is of course the starter battery which will be fully charged again just a few minutes after starting the engine. We call it “surface charge effect”. But in reality, “surface charge” or “not surface charge” is not a binary thing, it is a sliding scale.

[PD1964]

On 10/07/2021 at 16:09, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Just remember that you are limited to the number of wires on the terminals, why would you need longer threads ?

 

Any post 1998 boat must comply with this, and it is recommended for all boats.

 

 

10.8 No more than four conductors shall be secured to one terminal stud

 

I take it that this only applies to actual battery terminals and not to a negative Shunt if fitted?

Edited July 19, 2021 by PD1964

[nicknorman]

17 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I take it that this only applies to actual battery terminals and not to a negative Shunt if fitted?

No it applies to any stud type terminal. 

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I take it that this only applies to actual battery terminals and not to a negative Shunt if fitted?

 

If it was battery terminals I would have said so - as Nick says it relates to ALL terminal fitted onto studs.

 If you need more than 4-wires then run a single wire to a multi-way Bus-Bar, and the individual wires from the bus-bar to your equipment.

 

 

Eg : Use one of the studs as a supply and you can get up to 4 on each of the other terminals - should be enough for anyone (if not use a 6 way or 8 way bus-bar)

 

[Iain_S]

16 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The split charge relay is in fact a contactor that is really just a heavy-duty relay but controlled by the Smartbank which in its day was arguably the premier bit of kit for split charging. In essence, it is a voltage controlled relay, except the voltage is read by the Smartbank rather than small electronics inside a VSR case.

 

The Smartgauge does not need the Smartbank to function, but I think the Smartbank does need the Smartguage. Not 100% sure on that though.

 

While its working  why mess with it and spend money and when/if it stops working I would suggest is the time to keep the Smartguage  and fit a VSR.

Smartbank came in two versions, Standard and Advanced. The Standard is a stand alone device, while the Advanced has its voltage points controlled by Smartgauge. The Standard is easily modified to Advanced by removing a couple of resistors and diodes. It always stuck me as strange that the Advanced cost more than Standard, despite the difference being a lower component count on the PCB