Rudder / tiller alignment

[enigmatic]

So my boat had a little run in with a fallen tree chicane towards the bottom end of the Great Ouse - tip of the tiller got caught by an overhanging trunk as I swung the stern out, which meant quite a bit of force trying to yank the tiller clockwise with the rudder already pushed up against the hull as the boat tried to continue downstream.

 

This didn't turn out as disastrously as it might have done, but my tiller and rudder now point in slightly different directions.?

 

Rudder is perfectly straight, sits on the skeg as before (I've been in and checked!) and moves as before. Swan's neck and tiller arm is the original shape and at the base it still turns smoothly in its bearing.

There's little or no play and it feels more or less the same, ignoring the not-insignificant detail that the rudder is now at 15-20  degrees to the tiller! 

 

I assume the actual problem is at some join between tiller/rudder stock/rudder post which isn't immediately visible (swan's neck doesn't appear to have simply rotated around the nut at the very top: I dislodged intact paint unscrewing it). Swan's neck won't come off easily so I assume I'll  need the assistance of a boat yard, but hopefully the boat can stay in the water if the rudder itself is OK.

 

- Anyone have any idea what the most likely location/nature of the problem actually is?  Boat is a pretty standard narrowboat shell by Marque Narrowboats (if Mark himself can answer the question even better!)

- Any boat yards on the Great Ouse you'd actually recommend for such work? It's cruiser country down here... but I can still navigate

- Knowing the order of magnitude of damage I'm likely to do to my wallet and/or if the whole thing is likely to fall apart if I carry on moving the boat would also be useful, I guess

 

And yes, I'm aware that I'm not supposed to use trees to stop my boat!  

[Tony Brooks]

Many swan necks are just secured by a taper with a big nut on the rudder stock. If you have the big nut my first thought would be to put the tiller over so the rudder sits against the hull and   give it a very hard push or pull.

[Slim]

As TB says the odds are that your swan neck is secured to the rudder stock on a taper with both parts being held together with a bolt. On mine the bolt is not so large.( 8mm bolt with 13 mm AF head ) You may be lucky and be able to ease the bolt and pull/push the two components into line but I wouldn't have doubts. I fear that the two with have to be split and re-installed. Think track rod end on a cars steering. The problem you may encounter is that the configuration of the two do not lend themselves to a normal splitter. A good boatyard should have something suitable. I doubt it will fall apart and your wallet shouldn't be too badly damaged. Based on my experience I would say an hours work.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Slim

[enigmatic]

Thanks @Tony Brooks and @Slim

 

The nut removes OK but trying to turn back against the hull in the other direction don't seem to budge the neck at all, unless there's a knack to it I haven't mastered, and neither does attempting to lift the swans neck or tapping it gently with a sledgehammer  

 

There are also two grub screws just above the bearing that won't budge at all (even with WD40, a correct-sized Allen key and trying when it's hot and not so hot outside) but presumably a boatyard will have better equipment to deal with that too if need be.

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Thanks @Tony Brooks and @Slim

 

The nut removes OK but trying to turn back against the hull in the other direction don't seem to budge the neck at all, unless there's a knack to it I haven't mastered, and neither does attempting to lift the swans neck or tapping it gently with a sledgehammer  

 

There are also two grub screws just above the bearing that won't budge at all (even with WD40, a correct-sized Allen key and trying when it's hot and not so hot outside) but presumably a boatyard will have better equipment to deal with that too if need be.

 

I think those grub screws just fix the bearing collar to the rudder stock so they have no part in your problem.

 

If you are not strong enough to force the swan neck around on the taper, then as Slim says you need a boatyard to free the taper. It should not be a big job at all.  If you are trying to free it by hammer you need to hit the side of the boss of the  swan neck with an equally heavy sledgehammer held against the other side. It would help if a third person was levering the   boss upwards a sit is hit. A boatyard will be far easier.

[David Mack]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

If you are trying to free it by hammer you need to hit the side of the boss of the  swan neck with an equally heavy sledgehammer held against the other side.

Or it may need the application of heat to expand the boss. Either way you will need to repaint afterwards!

[ditchcrawler]

32 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Thanks @Tony Brooks and @Slim

 

The nut removes OK but trying to turn back against the hull in the other direction don't seem to budge the neck at all, unless there's a knack to it I haven't mastered, and neither does attempting to lift the swans neck or tapping it gently with a sledgehammer  

 

There are also two grub screws just above the bearing that won't budge at all (even with WD40, a correct-sized Allen key and trying when it's hot and not so hot outside) but presumably a boatyard will have better equipment to deal with that too if need be.

When I had to take mine off I had the same problem, tried  hitting it with two hammers. Going backwards at quite a rate the rudder swung round with a bang and it was free,

[Slim]

57 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think those grub screws just fix the bearing collar to the rudder stock so they have no part in your problem.

 

If you are not strong enough to force the swan neck around on the taper, then as Slim says you need a boatyard to free the taper. It should not be a big job at all.  If you are trying to free it by hammer you need to hit the side of the boss of the  swan neck with an equally heavy sledgehammer held against the other side. It would help if a third person was levering the   boss upwards a sit is hit. A boatyard will be far easier.

Yep! The grub screws relate to the top bearing not the taper. I tried the heavy club hammer - heavy weight approach without success. Ditto heat from a DIY gas blowlamp

[PaulJ]

Are you anywhere between Denver and Streatham Enigmatic?

Be going that way in a few days and happy to take a look /apply some extra grunt if thats any help.

[enigmatic]

8 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Are you anywhere between Denver and Streatham Enigmatic?

Be going that way in a few days and happy to take a look /apply some extra grunt if thats any help.

Greatly appreciate the offer but I'm the other end of the Ouse at the moment (St Neots, moving to Huntingdon/Godmanchester soonish)

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

Greatly appreciate the offer but I'm the other end of the Ouse at the moment (St Neots, moving to Huntingdon/Godmanchester soonish)

Keep your eyes on the weather tommorowz on the Ouse and Nene, could be very heavy and persistent rain for most of the day......

(What did you say today Paul!!)

[PaulJ]

19 hours ago, matty40s said:

Keep your eyes on the weather tommorowz on the Ouse and Nene, could be very heavy and persistent rain for most of the day......

(What did you say today Paul!!)

Yep- I can confirm it really did rain today on the Nene. Alot ?

[MarkH2159]

My swan neck was slightly out of alignment and I also had a knocking issue from the hydraulic steering ram so i needed to remove the swan neck to investigate and re align.

 

I copied this method and it worked a treat.

 

http://dru-withoutamap.blogspot.com/2021/06/replacing-rudder-stock-bearing-on.html 

[dmr]

29 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

My swan neck was slightly out of alignment and I also had a knocking issue from the hydraulic steering ram so i needed to remove the swan neck to investigate and re align.

 

I copied this method and it worked a treat.

 

http://dru-withoutamap.blogspot.com/2021/06/replacing-rudder-stock-bearing-on.html 

 

Our taper has been off twice. The first time I did it with a big automotive hydraulic puller. It was hard work and at the limit of what the puller could do.

Second time a boatyard did, I missed it happen, by the time I got out of the boat it was done, they used two people and two big hammers and got it on the second blow. A bit of a dent and a lot of paint to sort out.

 

I suspect the OPs problem is a bit of bending rather than slipping on the taper, but the solution is the same.

 

..............Dave

[Tony Brooks]

I think the OP's problem is that it is not a taper, it's a parallel shaft so you can't compare removing a taper with a parallel one. Remember he  said the collar came of slowly. That does not sound like a taper coming free to me.

[enigmatic]

On 19/06/2021 at 18:00, Tony Brooks said:

I think the OP's problem is that it is not a taper, it's a parallel shaft so you can't compare removing a taper with a parallel one. Remember he  said the collar came of slowly. That does not sound like a taper coming free to me.

 

What type of connection I have is one of the questions I'm still trying to work out

 

My setup looks quite similar to the other recent thread which I think is the one with the parallel shaft

- Rudder stock at slight (original) angle to the vertical passes into stock M208 bearing (my bearing is OK)

- Top nut screws into what appears to be a metal disc on top of the swan neck base, fixed in place with paint and rust if nothing else.

 

Are both roughly similar in tools/effort to ultimately remove anyway?

 

(Yes, I've been too busy this week to get it fixed)

[Stilllearning]

5 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

 

What type of connection I have is one of the questions I'm still trying to work out

 

My setup looks quite similar to the other recent thread which I think is the one with the parallel shaft

- Rudder stock at slight (original) angle to the vertical passes into stock M208 bearing (my bearing is OK)

- Top nut screws into what appears to be a metal disc on top of the swan neck base, fixed in place with paint and rust if nothing else.

 

Are both roughly similar in tools/effort to ultimately remove anyway?

 

(Yes, I've been too busy this week to get it fixed)

The way we used to do it involved three blokes and two sledgehammers. Remove the bolt in the top of the rudder stock, the two  blokes hit either side of the tiller base, at the same time. The third person holds the tiller and tries to waggle it, it usually took a few paired smacks to free the tiller.

[Tony Brooks]

 

If you take the bolt out and the big washer off and compare the diameter of the rudder stock under the washer with the size below the swan neck will show if it's tapered or not.

 

If it is parallel, the good luck and expect a real struggle. If its tapered, some blows with a sledgehammer on one s1de while another is held against the other may shift it. Otherwise, do as Brian  advised and maybe a big puller (if you can get it in, I could not on mine).

6 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

 

What type of connection I have is one of the questions I'm still trying to work out

 

My setup looks quite similar to the other recent thread which I think is the one with the parallel shaft

- Rudder stock at slight (original) angle to the vertical passes into stock M208 bearing (my bearing is OK)

- Top nut screws into what appears to be a metal disc on top of the swan neck base, fixed in place with paint and rust if nothing else.

 

Are both roughly similar in tools/effort to ultimately remove anyway?

 

(Yes, I've been too busy this week to get it fixed)

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If you take the bolt out and the big washer off and compare the diameter of the rudder stock under the washer with the size below the swan neck will show if it's tapered or not.

 

If it is parallel there must be some sort of end stop the swan neck is pulled down onto, otherwise tightening the bolt would just slide the swan neck boss down the rudder shaft until the bolt bottomed out. So if there isn't something obvious like a ring welded to the rudder shaft below the boss, then the top of the rudder shaft may be turned down (parallel) to give a seating for the swan neck boss at the bottom. If this is the case the shaft diameter below the bolt will be less than the full diameter, just as with a taper, and you won't known which you've got.

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

If it is parallel there must be some sort of end stop the swan neck is pulled down onto, otherwise tightening the bolt would just slide the swan neck boss down the rudder shaft until the bolt bottomed out. So if there isn't something obvious like a ring welded to the rudder shaft below the boss, then the top of the rudder shaft may be turned down (parallel) to give a seating for the swan neck boss at the bottom. If this is the case the shaft diameter below the bolt will be less than the full diameter, just as with a taper, and you won't known which you've got.

 

True, but if it is parallel then it really should have something to prevent the boss twisting on the stock so with no visible through bolt I would expect to see a keyway  in the swan neck boss. No keyway its probably taper but I expect anything form canal boatbuilders.

[enigmatic]

This is the top of the boss after the nut and big washer removed. I guess this is a parallel stock design?

 

No visible taper, just what appears to be the top of the rudder stock.

No visible end stop or keyway either. But I already know something's rotated, and I guess something bending or shearing would be worse...

 

[David Mack]

But how does the diameter of the top of the rudder shaft in that picture compare with the diameter beneath the swan neck boss?

[enigmatic]

Appears to be the same as far as I can tell with a tape measure: if there's any deviation it's a mm or two

[dmr]

Thats almost a certainly a taper, so the bolt and big washer pull it together.

 

A few mm could well be enough.

 

Never thought about what the taper would be, I might go and measure mine now.

 

............Dave

[dmr]

46mm to 50mm on mine so not a huge amount.

 

I've got the big washer off right now for a bit of rufurb, The old "penny washers" had gone concave so I found a lovely new thick stainless jobby on eBay.

 

..............Dave