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Hiya! We finally left the marina which the boat was moored in when we bought her last July and have been continously cruising for the last couple of months now.

 

We're also getting our solar panels installed at the end of July. After this point won't be be running the engine for 90 to 120mins a day to charge the batteries on days that we don't move, at least in the summer months! 

 

This means we won't have the daily injection of hot water into the calorifier, which other than the 1.25kW immersion (not viable to use without shoreline!) is our only source of hot water at the moment. 

 

On the boat we also have an Alde boiler (the tall thin kind) which does work to heat the 4 radiators, albeit in a prohibitively expensive fashion, but does absolutely nothing to heat the water despite seemingly being plumbed into the calorifier. I think I'd like to remove this completely eventually. 

 

So what are my options for a secondary hot water source? Removing the Alde and replacing with a diesel heater seems like a reasonable idea, could also use it to heat the radiators (we might actually use them if the fuel costs were lower!). 

 

I also thought I could maybe install a small on-demand gas water heater, there is a good location for this on the wall between the galley and bathroom, so near all the hot water taps, and the gas pipe to the Alde passes through the same spot. But would it be possible to plumb this is in without losing the calorifier as a hot water source? The radiators would remain unused in this scenario as well. 

 

I've also read about solar dump loads or 12v immersions in the calorifier, perhaps this is an option too? I wouldn't want to remove the 240v immersion in the calorifier presently though, since it is very useful if we end up back in a marina for any length of time! 

 

Anyone got any thoughts on what our best options might be? Or any ideas we might have missed? Thanks in advance! 

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Have you tried turning off the radiators and firing up the alde?  They are usually pretty good at heating the calorifier and would not use gas to the same extent as the radiators.  That would be dependent on how the sstem is plumbed. Many people use the alde as the  back up water heater.
I don't know how much solar you are getting or your power needs but I don't think you will get away with not running the engine at all if you are going to keep healthy batteries.

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13 minutes ago, JoshS said:

Hiya! We finally left the marina which the boat was moored in when we bought her last July and have been continously cruising for the last couple of months now.

 

Presumably there are not many days when you don't move.

 

But as previously said, the Alde should provide hot water, if not, it may need mods to the plumbing.

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1 minute ago, philjw said:

Have you tried turning off the radiators and firing up the alde?  They are usually pretty good at heating the calorifier and would not use gas to the same extent as the radiators.  That would be dependent on how the sstem is plumbed. Many people use the alde as the  back up water heater.
I don't know how much solar you are getting or your power needs but I don't think you will get away with not running the engine at all if you are going to keep healthy batteries.

We tried all sorts of combinations, including no radiators on and just the bathroom (which seems to be on the same loop as the calorifier). The water got tepid after an, hour or so but not decently warm for a winter shower! 

 

We're getting 640W of solar and our elextrical demands are modest, 12v fridge and maybe a couple of hours of TV in the evening, the usual pumps and LED lights throughout. 

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4 minutes ago, JoshS said:

We tried all sorts of combinations, including no radiators on and just the bathroom (which seems to be on the same loop as the calorifier). The water got tepid after an, hour or so but not decently warm for a winter shower! 

 

We're getting 640W of solar and our elextrical demands are modest, 12v fridge and maybe a couple of hours of TV in the evening, the usual pumps and LED lights throughout. 

 

Do you have  the Alde room stat fitted? If so set it to maximum because this is what controls the Alde pump. If set to any normal setting at this time of year the pump won't run so any circulation in the Alde loop will be by gravity/thermo-syphon and that will be very weak to non-existant. You can control the maximum temperature the calorifier can reach via the control on the Alde itself, but to minimise the gas use it really needs a cylinder stat to control the pump. Without that simply turn the Alde off when the cylinder is up to temperature. I ran mine like that for years. For even more economy think about moving the towel rail onto the main radiator circuit so in summer the Alde only heats the water.

 

Just be aware that the diesel boilers do not have a good name for long term reliability, although the Huricane seems to be better than others.

 

I think some on here use excess solar output to heat a 12V immersion heater once the batteries are charged. I don't know how viable that would be for you.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, JoshS said:

We tried all sorts of combinations, including no radiators on and just the bathroom (which seems to be on the same loop as the calorifier). The water got tepid after an, hour or so but not decently warm for a winter shower! 

This is not typical. You might want to see if there is air in the calorifier coil fed from the alde. You should get piping hot water, if you have the boiler set above minimum.

I would advise some decent battery monitoring kit to ensure that you are not depleting the batteries by relying on the solar implicitly.

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1 minute ago, philjw said:

This is not typical. You might want to see if there is air in the calorifier coil fed from the alde. You should get piping hot water, if you have the boiler set above minimum.

I would advise some decent battery monitoring kit to ensure that you are not depleting the batteries by relying on the solar implicitly.

 

He will need the Alde pump running for that. Fully agree about battery monitoring.

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Just now, Tony Brooks said:

He will need the Alde pump running for that. Fully agree about battery monitoring.

 

Yes indeed. I had to turn my stat up to the max to get the pump to run during the recent spell of hot weather.  And of course there is the switch on the standard alde room stat that needs to be slid to on.

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Do you have  the Alde room stat fitted? If so set it to maximum because this is what controls the Alde pump. If set to any normal setting at this time of year the pump won't run so any circulation in the Alde loop will be by gravity/thermo-syphon and that will be very weak to non-existant. You can control the maximum temperature the calorifier can reach via the control on the Alde itself, but to minimise the gas use it really needs a cylinder stat to control the pump. Without that simply turn the Alde off when the cylinder is up to temperature. I ran mine like that for years. For even more economy think about moving the towel rail onto the main radiator circuit so in summer the Alde only heats the water.

 

Just be aware that the diesel boilers do not have a good name for long term reliability, although the Huricane seems to be better than others.

 

I think some on here use excess solar output to heat a 12V immersion heater once the batteries are charged. I don't know how viable that would be for you.

 

 

Hmm, the stat is all the way up but it only goes up to 30 and the boat feels like it's probably close to that a lot of the time at this time of year! ? It sounds like the pump is running though. I wonder if there is some other issue or valve I've missed that's stopping the water circulating into the calorifier. 

 

I'm aware of the reliability issues with a lot of the diesel heaters, and also the rearranging of the utility area of the boat I'm going to have to do to swap the tall thin Alde for one, so I'm definitely keen to thoroughly explore all alternatives before I take the plunge! But keeping the Alde doesn't seem like the best idea right now, we can't afford the gas to run it to heat the radiators so if we're not using them they're a pretty big waste of space too! ?

 

 

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I have a Webasto water heater which I might be persuaded to sell (along with an expansion tank, pump, and 7 day timer) - it is a couple of years old but pretty much unused (I have only fired it up on a bench to make sure it all worked) so I would want strong money for it. I think the output is 4.4kw, it certainly heated a bucket of water up very quickly...

 

ETA I bought it for the camper conversion but have decided to plumb that into the engine - reverse of your issue as I will always be touring in the van

Edited by Bacchus
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9 minutes ago, philjw said:

This is not typical. You might want to see if there is air in the calorifier coil fed from the alde. You should get piping hot water, if you have the boiler set above minimum.

I would advise some decent battery monitoring kit to ensure that you are not depleting the batteries by relying on the solar implicitly.

I definitely need to go through and check the plumbing more thoroughly, I might have missed something obvious! 

 

My solar installation is coming with a Victron Smart Battery Sense so should be able to keep a relatively close eye on state of charge when they're installed ?

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Once again we come back to a solid fuel burner with a back boiler feeding a gravity heating system being the best for a live aboard boat

I'm not massively keen on lighting the stove when it's already 30°C onboard though... ?

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8 minutes ago, JoshS said:

I'm not massively keen on lighting the stove when it's already 30°C onboard though... ?

 

Exactly - that is a huge problem.

If you are going to take out the Alde, then take Bacchus up on his offer of the Webasto, or buy an Eberspacher. BUT, you might be working to a budget, but DO NOT buy a cheap unit off ebay, they are not marine (they are from cars or trucks) and the exhaust allows Carbon Monoxide to build up in the boat, its a bit pointless saving £100 if it ends up killing you.

 

If you find one, ask here if it is suitable.

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Often the radiators and calorifier coil are in parallel with each other with some form of valving to isolate the radiators for summer use. I have known 3 way valves: rads, calorifier, both, so see if you have something like that. Sometimes gate valves are used.

 

If you can hear the pump turning on and off as someone twiddles the room stat. Then it may be a good idea to try bleeding the Alde calorfier coil from its highest connection on the calorifier.

 

I think the Alde 29xx series has the gas consumption reputation because it uses a pilot burner that is always on when the Alde is running. So if you can get it sorted by only turning the Alde on to heat a calorifier of water and the off might make it far more economical gas wise. It will certainly give less battery drain than a diesel heater.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Exactly - that is a huge problem.

If you are going to take out the Alde, then take Bacchus up on his offer of the Webasto, or buy an Eberspacher. BUT, you might be working to a budget, but DO NOT buy a cheap unit off ebay, they are not marine (they are from cars or trucks) and the exhaust allows Carbon Monoxide to build up in the boat, its a bit pointless saving £100 if it ends up killing you.

 

If you find one, ask here if it is suitable.

Will definitely buy a proven brand whatever we choose, we're not loaded but understand the value of buying decent kit! ??

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Just now, JoshS said:

Will definitely buy a proven brand whatever we choose, we're not loaded but understand the value of buying decent kit! ??

 

Great, but its not just the BRAND you need the correct MODEL for boat / marine use.

On an automotive model there is a hole in the bottom of the exhaust that allows condensation and gases to escape, this doesn't matter because the condensation and gasses simply drop down below the car. Put one of these in a boat and the gases have no where to go and just sit in the bilges.

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Great, but its not just the BRAND you need the correct MODEL for boat / marine use.

On an automotive model there is a hole in the bottom of the exhaust that allows condensation and gases to escape, this doesn't matter because the condensation and gasses simply drop down below the car. Put one of these in a boat and the gases have no where to go and just sit in the bilges.

 

Also the map in its computer will be wrong for marine use and is likely to give you a lot of low voltage shut downs.

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I can confirm that the tall thin Alde can heat enough water for a shower in about 20 minutes if all the radiators are turned off.  Over this timescale the gas consumption isn't really an issue.

 

I had the opposite problem to the OP - the radiators would only get lukewarm in winter, so I had to fit a valve to reduce the flow to the calorifier to send more water to the radiators. In summer I would open this valve fully. You may have to do likewise to maximise the water heating in summer.

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4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think the Alde 29xx series has the gas consumption reputation because it uses a pilot burner that is always on when the Alde is running. So if you can get it sorted by only turning the Alde on to heat a calorifier of water and the off might make it far more economical gas wise. It will certainly give less battery drain than a diesel heater.

That's quite interesting actually. I've basically written the unit off because of all the terrible things I've read about it consuming a £38 bottle of gas in 3 days, but I've not actually tested it myself. If it's not actually that bad if we'll managed (quite happy to turn it on and off as required, definitely don't need a system that can run in standby all day and night) maybe I should just get it running properly and save myself the ordeal of getting a new system installed! 

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2 minutes ago, JoshS said:

That's quite interesting actually. I've basically written the unit off because of all the terrible things I've read about it consuming a £38 bottle of gas in 3 days, but I've not actually tested it myself. If it's not actually that bad if we'll managed (quite happy to turn it on and off as required, definitely don't need a system that can run in standby all day and night) maybe I should just get it running properly and save myself the ordeal of getting a new system installed! 

 

If you can get it working, I say very wise. Just be aware that some parts  are beginning to get difficult to source but at least most of it can be done by DIY as long as you are capable of disconnecting and reconnecting a fas pipe safely for non-livaboards.

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2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Once again we come back to a solid fuel burner with a back boiler feeding a gravity heating system being the best for a live aboard boat

Ideal for heating the water in mid summer ?  Note the smilly its a joke

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3 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Once again we come back to a solid fuel burner with a back boiler feeding a gravity heating system being the best for a live aboard boat

Not in the summer ;)

 

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I was just about to suggest looking at the header tank but Tony beat me to it. Even a small leak on the system will drain the header tank which also acts as the expansion tank. The egg whisk on the end of the motor shaft will be moving air rather than water. 

 

If the system has antifreeze in you should be able to see how full the header tank is. Failing that remove the pump from the top of the vessel and stick your finger in.

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