Essential Check List/Questions for boat builder & hints and tips for a boat club interview!

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

If the OP feels the need to employ a surveyor to check/oversee work that is being done by professional people who may be more qualified at their specific job then the surveyor then she needs to talk to the builder to their competency in building a boat. 
  How do you know the competency and professionalism of the surveyor? I would not employ a surveyor/project manager as I would have confidence in the builder I employed and knowing surveyor’s there’s a lot of bad ones out there.

Wow Alan another cut’n’paste?

 

 

I agree about how many incompetent surveyors there are around, but what else can a customer do to TRY to protect their interests. As Alan says the industry has proven over many years an inability to consistently abide by specifications, or are you trying to deny that is the case?

 

So apart from "trust me I am a boatbuilder" how do you suggest a customer protects  their £100,000 investment in a boat during the building and fitting out?

[Hrk1ng]

THANK YOU everyone for the input. 

 

Have done some reading up and on doing so found some other bits and pieces that are needed too. 

 

Remember life is very short - kindness and politeness cost nothing.

 

Have lovely Monday's everyone. Keep calm and boat on. ? 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Hrk1ng said:

THANK YOU everyone for the input. 

 

Have done some reading up and on doing so found some other bits and pieces that are needed too. 

 

Remember life is very short - kindness and politeness cost nothing.

 

Have lovely Monday's everyone. Keep calm and boat on. ? 

 

That is all to the good, the better informed you are the more likely a completely satisfactory outcome.

 

In fairness I must point out that I have no personal knowledge of your chosen boat fitter so my views are based on the results for a wide selection of builders/fitters, and you do not need to take any account of them at all.

 

 

[Hrk1ng]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is all to the good, the better informed you are the more likely a completely satisfactory outcome.

 

In fairness I must point out that I have no personal knowledge of your chosen boat fitter so my views are based on the results for a wide selection of builders/fitters, and you do not need to take any account of them at all.

 

 

Absolutely. 
 

Thank you for the time you’ve taken to advise us. Forewarned is forearmed as they say. 

[Captain Pegg]

2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

If the OP feels the need to employ a surveyor to check/oversee work that is being done by professional people who may be more qualified at their specific job then the surveyor then she needs to talk to the builder to their competency in building a boat. 
  How do you know the competency and professionalism of the surveyor? I would not employ a surveyor/project manager as I would have confidence in the builder I employed and knowing surveyor’s there’s a lot of bad ones out there.

Wow Alan another cut’n’paste?

 I would pick a builder that I know would produce a good boat, so no need for a Surveyor to check it. It’s all about having confidence in the builder you pick and if it’s not there you’ve chosen the wrong builder.

It’s not about the specific competence of the people who physically build the boat. It’s about having a specification and a means of demonstrating conformance to that specification. Without such, any notions of ‘quality’ are purely arbitrary and subjective and therefore meaningless in any practical sense.

 

A non-compliant boat may still demonstrate superb craftsmanship and look fabulous, but it could also present the buyer with a huge liability.

 

No boatbuilder advertises themselves as incompetent and we see from other threads on here that even those yards with their detractors have others that will stand up in support of them. That’s why having someone independent to represent you that understands the level of ‘quality’ inherent in the technical specification and can measure conformance to that specification - in addition to the legal requirements - is a prudent decision.

[PD1964]

48 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

It’s not about the specific competence of the people who physically build the boat. It’s about having a specification and a means of demonstrating conformance to that specification. Without such, any notions of ‘quality’ are purely arbitrary and subjective and therefore meaningless in any practical sense.

 

A non-compliant boat may still demonstrate superb craftsmanship and look fabulous, but it could also present the buyer with a huge liability.

 

No boatbuilder advertises themselves as incompetent and we see from other threads on here that even those yards with their detractors have others that will stand up in support of them. That’s why having someone independent to represent you that understands the level of ‘quality’ inherent in the technical specification and can measure conformance to that specification - in addition to the legal requirements - is a prudent decision.

How many boat builders build a boat that doesn’t comply then issue a RCD/RCR saying everything complies ? None as they wouldn’t be in business for long. Putting all your trust in an independent Surveyor may not be the best solution a lot would depend on his knowledge and experience.

  I wonder how many people have employed an independent Surveyor of their choice to oversee a complete boat build from starting shell to finished boat, who has inspected all work done by the builders. Not many I imagine.

[Tony Brooks]

20 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

How many boat builders build a boat that doesn’t comply then issue a RCD/RCR saying everything complies ? None as they wouldn’t be in business for long. Putting all your trust in an independent Surveyor may not be the best solution a lot would depend on his knowledge and experience.

  I wonder how many people have employed an independent Surveyor of their choice to oversee a complete boat build from starting shell to finished boat, who has inspected all work done by the builders. Not many I imagine.

 

No, I think you are correct about not many and that may account for the horrors we have read about, seen court cases over and in some cases have been involved in.

 

I wonder how many people commissioning a new boat know how little protection the UK legal system gives them if the boat is faulty. I wonder how many  know all about the ramifications of the RCR.

 

I note that you seem to have no answer to how a customer protects themselves from being sold a banana shaped boat, and asymmetrical boat, an over width boat or an over or under length one. I am afraid "trust me, I am a boat builder/fitter" does not stand scrutiny because the problems I list have all apparently occurred, so come on, back up your assertions with practical and concrete advice.

[Alan de Enfield]

Builders of Narrowboats have one exemption to full compliance of the RCD / RCR in that because it is a simple 'cottage industry' they are allowed to "self certify" and it is not compulsory to have a 3rd party inspection and certificate of compliance. This is the only section of the boat building industry that is allowed to self certify - every builder of 'proper boats' including such big companies as Bayliner, Princess Yachts, Beneatau, in fact any manufacturer worldwide that is supplying boats into the UK or EU MUST have independent surveyors monitoring and certifying their build is to standard.

 

The fact that no one is overseeing the NB builders has led to the examples of poor build quality and non-compliant boats that we all know about.

Once the lining is installed - who knows if the cable is the correct size, or just a piece of wet-cotton.

Unfortunately some builders have shown themselves to be untrustworthy and the exemption to over view by an independent surveyor should be withdrawn.

 

Here is an extract from my boats certificate of compliance showing that this surveyor witnessed the build and can confirm compliance.

 

Lagoon is the worlds largest manufacturer of Catamarans and part of the Beneteau group of boat builders.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does My Narrowboat Need To Comply?

Unless the boat is being built by you, for your own use then the directive does apply in full. DIY builders or those fitting out a shell should be aware that if they choose to apply the exclusion and then later find that they need to sell the craft then they could be faced with a mandatory ‘Post Constructional Assessment’ which is very likely to incur large professional fees running into several thousand pounds.

 

What Must I Do In Order To Comply?

There are administration requirements for the ‘responsible person’ to compile a file of technical information about how the craft satisfies the ‘Essential Requirements’ of the directive and in addition a detailed Owners manual must be produced so as to inform the owner on how to operate the craft and its equipment in a safe fashion. Ultimately a completed craft which satisfies the requirements must be marked with the ‘CE’ logo and be fitted with a builders plate indicating how many passengers, crew and luggage may be carried aboard the boat. For barges and other craft intended to be cruised in non ‘Sheltered waters’ proving compliance can be more elaborate.

What Essential Requirements Are Applicable To Narrowboats?

All the ER’s must be satisfied irrespective of the craft type, however achieving compliance can be less difficult for narrowboats than for example a transatlantic sailing yacht.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

37 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

How many boat builders build a boat that doesn’t comply then issue a RCD/RCR saying everything complies ? None as they wouldn’t be in business for long. Putting all your trust in an independent Surveyor may not be the best solution a lot would depend on his knowledge and experience.

  I wonder how many people have employed an independent Surveyor of their choice to oversee a complete boat build from starting shell to finished boat, who has inspected all work done by the builders. Not many I imagine.

Any new Narrowboat you see with navigation lights fitted doesn't comply with the RCD. I can remember cases of boats failing their first BSS inspection at 4 years old

[Captain Pegg]

34 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

How many boat builders build a boat that doesn’t comply then issue a RCD/RCR saying everything complies ? None as they wouldn’t be in business for long. Putting all your trust in an independent Surveyor may not be the best solution a lot would depend on his knowledge and experience.

  I wonder how many people have employed an independent Surveyor of their choice to oversee a complete boat build from starting shell to finished boat, who has inspected all work done by the builders. Not many I imagine.

Tony has answered well but you shouldn’t take the employment of a client’s representative as some form of sleight on the capability or character of the builder. It’s simply a process that pretty much any other manufacturing or engineering industry finds necessary for work of such value. If you were a builder doing major house alterations of values in excess of £100k you’d expect to be engaged by the owner’s architect and/or engineer. The very act of entering into a contract means the client is deeming the builder to be competent, but they will still be assuring the work.

[Bee]

Too much is made about RCD compliance and narrowboats. Much of the RCD is pretty vague and narrowboats are only ever - with few exceptions- going to plough up and down shallow canals. They are massively strong, of a very limited range of dimensions, of nearly identical stability and unless some dozy fabricator makes holes in really silly places they are hard to sink.  I doubt the RCD has ever saved a narrowboat from 'downflooding' or very much at all.  The BSS is more relevant.

[Tony Brooks]

25 minutes ago, Bee said:

Too much is made about RCD compliance and narrowboats. Much of the RCD is pretty vague and narrowboats are only ever - with few exceptions- going to plough up and down shallow canals. They are massively strong, of a very limited range of dimensions, of nearly identical stability and unless some dozy fabricator makes holes in really silly places they are hard to sink.  I doubt the RCD has ever saved a narrowboat from 'downflooding' or very much at all.  The BSS is more relevant.

 

Fully agree with that until sales time comes and a survey finds RCD/RCR non-compliance.

[PD1964]

39 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

No, I think you are correct about not many and that may account for the horrors we have read about, seen court cases over and in some cases have been involved in.

 

I wonder how many people commissioning a new boat know how little protection the UK legal system gives them if the boat is faulty. I wonder how many  know all about the ramifications of the RCR.

 

I note that you seem to have no answer to how a customer protects themselves from being sold a banana shaped boat, and asymmetrical boat, an over width boat or an over or under length one. I am afraid "trust me, I am a boat builder/fitter" does not stand scrutiny because the problems I list have all apparently occurred, so come on, back up your assertions with practical and concrete advice.

Yes problems occur but how many thousands of narrowboats have been built? There is no ideal answer unless an independent stands over the builders shoulder at every stage and we all know this will never happen, but you say employ an independent surveyor? We all know anyone can do a surveyor’s course through distant learning so who guarantees they will pick up on everything at fault. As I said how many have employed a independent surveyor from start to finish? This just doesn’t happen in the real world as most wouldn’t  have a clue how to check welds and tolerance’s on a shell and a lot aren’t even Boat Safe on gas.

 So there isn’t an ideal answer, except if your that worried about it don’t buy a Narrowboat.

[Captain Pegg]

32 minutes ago, Bee said:

Too much is made about RCD compliance and narrowboats. Much of the RCD is pretty vague and narrowboats are only ever - with few exceptions- going to plough up and down shallow canals. They are massively strong, of a very limited range of dimensions, of nearly identical stability and unless some dozy fabricator makes holes in really silly places they are hard to sink.  I doubt the RCD has ever saved a narrowboat from 'downflooding' or very much at all.  The BSS is more relevant.

 

That’s true but the RCD and BSS exist for different purposes.
 

The RCD is an instrument of the EU whose objective is a specification that creates a single set of requirements for entry into the market. It’s principally about creating a level playing field for trade rather than a set of safety requirements.

 

Now the UK has left the EU we have the ability to repeal the RCR (as it now is under UK legislation) but I suspect it probably won’t be high on the list of things for the Government to tackle post-Brexit.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Captain Pegg said:

Now the UK has left the EU we have the ability to repeal the RCR (as it now is under UK legislation) but I suspect it probably won’t be high on the list of things for the Government to tackle post-Brexit.

 

 

That is very unlikely.

The RCR will stay following / tracking the RCD as the UK sales of boats into the EU market has an enormous value and makes a big contribution to trade.

Typically each boat can be £3m to £12m value. and there are 100s of boats sold each year.

 

Every NB built per annum would not equal a single Princess boat.

The RCR will not be revoked.

[Bee]

9 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

That’s true but the RCD and BSS exist for different purposes.
 

The RCD is an instrument of the EU whose objective is a specification that creates a single set of requirements for entry into the market. It’s principally about creating a level playing field for trade rather than a set of safety requirements.

 

Now the UK has left the EU we have the ability to repeal the RCR (as it now is under UK legislation) but I suspect it probably won’t be high on the list of things for the Government to tackle post-Brexit.

You are absolutely correct and I also cannot see the RCR being changed overmuch as any boat builder who wants to sell into the EU will have to adhere to the RCD.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Bee
crossed with posts

[Captain Pegg]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That is very unlikely.

The RCR will stay following / tracking the RCD as the UK sales of boats into the EU market has an enormous value and makes a big contribution to trade.

Typically each boat can be £3m to £12m value. and there are 100s of boats sold each year.

 

Every NB built per annum would not equal a single Princess boat.

The RCR will not be revoked.

No surprise there. I dare say most of the EU regulations that folk objected to being imposed on them will stay for similar reasons despite our ‘independence’.

[Captain Pegg]

43 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That is very unlikely.

The RCR will stay following / tracking the RCD as the UK sales of boats into the EU market has an enormous value and makes a big contribution to trade.

Typically each boat can be £3m to £12m value. and there are 100s of boats sold each year.

 

Every NB built per annum would not equal a single Princess boat.

The RCR will not be revoked.

 

38 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

No surprise there. I dare say most of the EU regulations that folk objected to being imposed on them will stay for similar reasons despite our ‘independence’.

On reflection that doesn’t hold since it doesn’t require EU law to be shadowed in UK law to enable compliance with the EU law. How else would every other country in the World outside of the EU trade within the EU if it did?

 

If the RCR were deemed restrictive for the domestic market then it could be amended or indeed rescinded. It has no bearing on the status of the RCD for products exported to the EU.

[system 4-50]

I have just told my wife, who does all the cooking, that in view of the high-value item involved, ie my life, I am going to get an overseer to check on her work.  Since I don't have a known-good overseer available, I will take whatever the local employment agency can offer and take an additional worker on to oversee the overseer.

After a rather short discussion I have changed my mind.  Since she has a good history ie been in the cooking business for 40+ years, and has produced a large number of meals satisfactorily, and has a good reputation (as vouchsafed by me), I will take it on trust that she will continue to concoct excellent products.

I can't provide more details at the moment, I need to find some sticking plasters.

[Bee]

16 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I have just told my wife, who does all the cooking, that in view of the high-value item involved, ie my life, I am going to get an overseer to check on her work.  Since I don't have a known-good overseer available, I will take whatever the local employment agency can offer and take an additional worker on to oversee the overseer.

After a rather short discussion I have changed my mind.  Since she has a good history ie been in the cooking business for 40+ years, and has produced a large number of meals satisfactorily, and has a good reputation (as vouchsafed by me), I will take it on trust that she will continue to concoct excellent products.

I can't provide more details at the moment, I need to find some sticking plasters.

That'll teach you.

[PD1964]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Fully agree with that until sales time comes and a survey finds RCD/RCR non-compliance.

Or just wait till the boat is over 5 years old and nobody is bothered about the RCD/RCR, like most boaters that buy a 2nd hand boat and even the Surveyor’s recommendation’s usually say it doesn’t comply with the BSC, they don’t say it doesn’t comply with the RCR. I wonder why?

Edited June 21, 2021 by PD1964

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, PD1964 said:

How many boat builders build a boat that doesn’t comply then issue a RCD/RCR saying everything complies ? None as they wouldn’t be in business for long

I don't think anyone can answer your question, since hardly any of the narrow (or wide) boats churned out every year by the canal boat building industry are independently assessed for  RCD/RCR compliance. People just assume that if the builder has self-certified compliance, then it does comply, and the builder's paperwork is used in subsequent transactions as evidence of this compliance.

Since nobody ever checks, there is almost never any comeback on a boatbuilder who has (knowingly or unknowingly) certified a boat which is not fully compliant, and hence such non-compliance rarely has any impact on the boatbuilder's business.

[PD1964]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I don't think anyone can answer your question, since hardly any of the narrow (or wide) boats churned out every year by the canal boat building industry are independently assessed for  RCD/RCR compliance. People just assume that if the builder has self-certified compliance, then it does comply, and the builder's paperwork is used in subsequent transactions as evidence of this compliance.

Since nobody ever checks, there is almost never any comeback on a boatbuilder who has (knowingly or unknowingly) certified a boat which is not fully compliant, and hence such non-compliance rarely has any impact on the boatbuilder's business.

I don’t even think that many Surveyor’s would be a 100% confident in assessing a completed new boat in regards to the RCD/RCR requirements.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

Or just wait till the boat is over 5 years old and nobody is bothered about the RCD/RCR, like most boaters that buy a 2nd hand boat and even the Surveyor’s recommendation’s usually say it doesn’t comply with the BSC, they don’t say it doesn’t comply with the RCR. I wonder why?

 

 

Maybe you are not aware that the Regulations changed in 2017 and the RCD is now applicable for the life of the boat, any changes to the boat that could affect safety (gas system electrical system, stability etc etc) means that the boats has to be reassessed in a Post Construction Assessment (PCA)

Changing the engine type = needs a PCA

 

The 5 year 'rule' that you keep quoting was only with regard to the ability to sell  a self-built boat on the open market after 5 years.

Several brokers are now refusing to handle boats without a valid RCD / RCR as with the new lifetime rule, it means that a boat cannot be sold if it doesn't have the paperwok.

[PD1964]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Maybe you are not aware that the Regulations changed in 2017 and the RCD is now applicable for the life of the boat, any changes to the boat that could affect safety (gas system electrical system, stability etc etc) means that the boats has to be reassessed in a Post Construction Assessment (PCA)

Changing the engine type = needs a PCA

 

The 5 year 'rule' that you keep quoting was only with regard to the ability to sell  a self-built boat on the open market after 5 years.

Several brokers are now refusing to handle boats without a valid RCD / RCR as with the new lifetime rule, it means that a boat cannot be sold if it doesn't have the paperwok.

Please put a link to the lifetime rule so people can see if their boat is compliant to sell. As just looked at a well respected brokers site Abnb and they said “The RCR only applies to the craft when brand new and there is no requirement for it to remain compliant after the first day” so that could mean it could be non compliant if the RCR changes a week later, so I can’t see the point of a lifetime RCR,  I would also say you would only need a PCA where it’s a major craft modification and I doubt changing an engine like for like would be called a major modification to some. I also doubt people get a PCA when they alter their gas or electrical system on a Narrowboat. It all boils down to how you interpret “major craft modification or conversion” I would class a major modification a complete back to metal strip and refit. It’s always been a grey area open to interpretation.

https://www.abnb.co.uk/useful-information/faq-rcd

Edited June 22, 2021 by PD1964