Essential Check List/Questions for boat builder & hints and tips for a boat club interview!

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, PD1964 said:

So your saying the boat builder will not know the current regulations on what is required with the RCD? Be real

 

You keep on about the RCD, there is no RCD requirement for UK built and sold boats. What there now is, is the Recreational Craft Regulations. Now i accept these may well be a cut and paste from the RCD but the RCD is still not applicable to UK built and sold boats.

 

History shows that boat builders either have not known the RCD (now RCR) regulations or have chosen to ignore them and build as they have always done but supplied  the documentation that later turned out to be false. So what I am saying is that the RCD documentation supplied by the boat builder can not be 100% relied upon so the purchaser really needs to  independently ensure the blat complies and the documentation is as it should be.

 

I would suggest that it is you that needs to "be real".

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

So your saying the boat builder will not know the current regulations on what is required with the RCD? 

 

The RCD is no longer relevant - the new requirement is the RCR. (Recreational Craft Regulations)

[PD1964]

17 minutes ago, Hrk1ng said:

Tony could you help me in understanding what I need to ensure to be RCR compliant? If you wouldn't mind and have the time? 

Please just talk to the builders they will know all the compliance regulations. 
 You can easily find all the requirements on line if you Google, that’s all Tony will do like a lot of experts on here, he is not a boat builder.

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by PD1964

[PD1964]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The RCD is no longer relevant - the new requirement is the RCR. (Recreational Craft Regulations)

I think most people will know what I mean RCD/RCR

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

You keep on about the RCD, there is no RCD requirement for UK built and sold boats. What there now is, is the Recreational Craft Regulations. Now i accept these may well be a cut and paste from the RCD but the RCD is still not applicable to UK built and sold boats.

 

History shows that boat builders either have not known the RCD (now RCR) regulations or have chosen to ignore them and build as they have always done but supplied  the documentation that later turned out to be false. So what I am saying is that the RCD documentation supplied by the boat builder can not be 100% relied upon so the purchaser really needs to  independently ensure the blat complies and the documentation is as it should be.

 

I would suggest that it is you that needs to "be real".

Stop scare mongering.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

You can easily find all the requirements on line if you Google,

 

If you google it, all you will find on line is a list of 700+ 'Standards' that must be used to build the boat - you used to be able to view these at Manchester Library, but apparently no longer,

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Hrk1ng said:

Tony could you help me in understanding what I need to ensure to be RCR compliant? If you wouldn't mind and have the time? 

 

Happy to try to help, but I am no expert in the minutia of the RCR. What I do know is that the RCD (what the RCR is based upon) only referenced a whole raft of ISO/BS standards the boat and its systems had to comply with. These standards are very expensive to buy, although a library might give you access to them, and I suspect many canal boat builders/boat fitters do not possess them.

 

There are surveyors who offer a service to help get a boat it's RCR certification who should have access to all those standards so although it would cost I suspect your employing one to oversee the build needs considering.

 

As an example, the minimum size and number of strands of copper inside the cables is specified but once the wiring harnesses are made how do you, as the customer, ensure the standard has been complied with? I have an example of a professional marine loom maker who thought his opinion overrode the specific instructions of a fridge manufacturer  and another boat building company made the same mistake. In both cases the customer was the one who had to sort the problems.

 

Happy customers do not guarantee the boat complies, it just means they have had no problems with it.

 

I am in no way trying to suggest that your chosen boat fitter will supply fraudulent documentation, but so many have in the past, I can not be confident that they never do, even accidentally.

 

You need to grasp just how important correct RCR documentation is. I have heard of at least one broker who refused to handle a boat with no RCD so the same may apply to the RCR. A boat with a fraudulent RCR may be unsellable or be costly to retrospectively gain compliance and certification.

[PD1964]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

You need to grasp just how important correct RCR documentation is. I have heard of at least one broker who refused to handle a boat with no RCD so the same may apply to the RCR. A boat with a fraudulent RCR may be unsellable or be costly to retrospectively gain compliance and certification.

Most brokers will not sell a boat without a RCD/RCR if the boat is less then 5 years old, it’s standard practice with most brokers.

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Stop scare mongering.

 

Will you personally put up a bond for the OP to cover them for the financial consequences of being unlucky enough to get a fraudulent RCR certification? About a million should do it.

 

I would also be very interested to see your justification for trying to suggest that fraudulent RCD documents have never been issued because history shows they have been.

 

Would  you have some kind of relationship with a boatbuilder/boat fitter? Your insistence that pointing out known past problems is scare mongering suggest that you may have.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, PD1964 said:

Most brokers will not sell a boat without a RCD/RCR if the boat is less then 5 years old, it’s standard practice with most brokers.

 

So you agree a fraudulent RCR may make the boat unsellable until the RCR situation has been rectified. Practically that will be at the cost of the vendor because if they tried to recover it from the builder/fitter history shows that there would be a real risk of them liquidating  the company.

[PD1964]

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Would  you have some kind of relationship with a boatbuilder/boat fitter? Your insistence that pointing out known past problems is scare mongering suggest that you may have.

I have no relationship with any boat builder, but I do have some of the best boat builders in the country as friends, both Shell builders, wood workers and complete builders and I know all their work complies and they have never had any RCD/RCR issues with their boats.

  So if you bought a new boat with a RCR you would employ one of the RYA surveyor’s to rip all the wiring out to make sure it complies and everything on the RCR?

  Please let me know how they would do that with a fully fitted out boat without doing major damage, also how would they check all the welding seams comply with current regulations internally without stripping to bare shell? Absolutely ridiculous.

  

  

Edited June 21, 2021 by PD1964

[PD1964]

45 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

So you agree a fraudulent RCR may make the boat unsellable until the RCR situation has been rectified. Practically that will be at the cost of the vendor because if they tried to recover it from the builder/fitter history shows that there would be a real risk of them liquidating  the company.

NO. I’m saying brokers will/can’t sell a boat without a RCD/RCR if the boat is less then 5 years old. How many professional builders supply a fraudulent RCR? Please name so we know to avoid.

 Any Fraudulent document is illegal, RCR, Survey, BSC so any of these would call in doubt the compliance to regulations of any boat new or old.

  We’re talking about a professional boat builder here, not a self build amateur that bought a sailaway. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by PD1964

[Tony Brooks]

27 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

NO. I’m saying brokers will/can’t sell a boat without a RCD/RCR if the boat is less then 5 years old. How many professional builders supply a fraudulent RCR? Please name so we know to avoid.

 

I know of one that promptly liquidated at upon legal action who seems to have moved out of the industry and have heard of at least one more.

 

So a broker refusing to handle the sale of  a boat does not make it unsellable for a number of people?

[Tony Brooks]

35 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I have no relationship with any boat builder, but I do have some of the best boat builders in the country as friends, both Shell builders, wood workers and complete builders and I know all their work complies and they have never had any RCD/RCR issues with their boats.

  So if you bought a new boat with a RCR you would employ one of the RYA surveyor’s to rip all the wiring out to make sure it complies and everything on the RCR?

  Please let me know how they would do that with a fully fitted out boat without doing major damage, also how would they check all the welding seams comply with current regulations internally without stripping to bare shell? Absolutely ridiculous.

  

  

 

That is why I said that if I was having a new boat built I would employ a surveyor to oversee the build. I would expect them to check the specifications of all the bought in parts like wiring looms, gas pipe etc. Remember, it was not very long ago that metric gas pipe did not meet the BS for gas piping. (The BS has now been altered, I understand).

 

It is for the OP to decide their best course of action but being landed with £100,000 boat with a fraudulent RCR that can't be brokered does not sound like  a sensible risk to me. You and presumably your boat builder friend obviously have an interest in minimising the dangers of non-compliance.

 

[PD1964]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I know of one that promptly liquidated at upon legal action who seems to have moved out of the industry and have heard of at least one more.

 

So a broker refusing to handle the sale of  a boat does not make it unsellable for a number of people?

 So they are not now building boats, that wasn’t hard to gather.

 Anyone can sell a boat to another person if both parties are aware of the legal situation and both agree to it, you mentioned “Broker” if someone wants to buy a boat less then 5 years old without a RCR they can off EBay or from a guy in the pub, but not a broker as you know. 

 

[PD1964]

23 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is why I said that if I was having a new boat built I would employ a surveyor to oversee the build. I would expect them to check the specifications of all the bought in parts like wiring looms, gas pipe etc. Remember, it was not very long ago that metric gas pipe did not meet the BS for gas piping. (The BS has now been altered, I understand).

 

It is for the OP to decide their best course of action but being landed with £100,000 boat with a fraudulent RCR that can't be brokered does not sound like  a sensible risk to me. You and presumably your boat builder friend obviously have an interest in minimising the dangers of non-compliance.

 

My friends are professionals that often win Crick so not amateurs or new to building.

 Stop going on about fraudulent RCR’s they do not happen with established boat building professionals.

 If the OP has concerns with the RCR after your scare mongering and is not happy with the competence or professionalism of her builder she could always book a RCD/RCR course through the RYA where she could learn everything about the RCD/RCA.

https://britishmarine.co.uk/Events-and-Courses/Training-Courses/RCD-Awareness

Edited June 21, 2021 by PD1964

[Tony Brooks]

They have and probably do happen to unsuspecting new boat buyers and just because you don't want to accept that because it reflects badly on the trade is not my fault. I note you are now qualifying your answers with "long established boat building professionals", so lets see if you are so sure of yourself that you will personally provide indemnity to the OP in case it happens.

 

Almost every month I have to try to advise those who have suffered at the hands of so-called professionals on the inland scene, so hold the professionalism of the inland industry in pretty poor regard. For an example, there are still far too many boats being built with undersized skin tanks for the installed engine. The so-called professionals do not even seem to be capable of doing the calculations need to ensure the skin tank is of the correct size - even though the data is well known. That may or may not be part of the RCR but I hope adequate engine cooling would be. It is Just another example of  inland "professionals" screwing up.

 

Caveat emptor must be the watchwords when you are buying a multi-thousand pound item from a cottage industry with a less than glittering history.

[PD1964]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

They have and probably do happen to unsuspecting new boat buyers and just because you don't want to accept that because it reflects badly on the trade is not my fault. I note you are now qualifying your answers with "long established boat building professionals", so lets see if you are so sure of yourself that you will personally provide indemnity to the OP in case it happens.

 

Almost every month I have to try to advise those who have suffered at the hands of so-called professionals on the inland scene, so hold the professionalism of the inland industry in pretty poor regard. For an example, there are still far too many boats being built with undersized skin tanks for the installed engine. The so-called professionals do not even seem to be capable of doing the calculations need to ensure the skin tank is of the correct size - even though the data is well known. That may or may not be part of the RCR but I hope adequate engine cooling would be. It is Just another example of  inland "professionals" screwing up.

 

Caveat emptor must be the watchwords when you are buying a multi-thousand pound item from a cottage industry with a less than glittering history.

Better still why don’t you go and supervise/project manage the whole build and you can even count the copper strands in the engine wiring loom to make sure they comply, Please volunteer your service and you can sign all the work off to RCR compliance. Yes/No??

[Tony Brooks]

I advised that the OP did just that. Employ someone to go into that detail if its required. It should not be required because the specification for the wiring should all be documented on either the order for bought in parts or the wiring diagram/plan. The fact you are suggesting it might be necessary to go to those lengths only strengthens my suspicion boat builders/fitters in general need watching as they build.

 

You are the one trying to say that the OP has no chance whatsoever of having a problem, so your reluctance to indemnify them speaks volumes.

 

You know, or you should do if you read the forum and keep your ear to the ground, as well as I do that once the final payment is made all too many builders have made a half-hearted attempt to resolve problems and then simply walked away and ignored the customer. Unfortunately in the UK the bodies that are supposed to ensure compliance with consumer protection are pretty much unwilling to get involved so the boater is left with either accepting things as they are or starting expensive legal action which has been shown in the past to result in liquidation of the company.

 

By the way, once the wiring is installed and working, it is simple enough to check if its of adequate size by dong volt drop testing. I would agree that won't confirm the strand size is correct, but it's a pretty good indication that it is.

[PD1964]

Just love your scare mongering, The OP seams happy with the builder. I would not employ a Surveyor to oversee every aspect of his work from checking components, electrical installation, hull compliance, gas installation. That’s why he employs professionals to do the work, who are qualified to do the work. If she listens to you all she would do is sour the relationship she has with the builder she has employed which is never a good thing.

[Tony Brooks]

Or you don't want your mate the boat builder's work to be scrutinised before final payment.

 

I agree some surveyors may foul up the relationship and if so either them or the builder/fitter is not professional. Proper professionals should cooperate to the benefit of the customer. Of course, if the builder gets all coy and uncooperative things will quickly go bad, but perhaps they should to protect the customer.

[PD1964]

21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Or you don't want your mate the boat builder's work to be scrutinised before final payment.

 

I agree some surveyors may foul up the relationship and if so either them or the builder/fitter is not professional. Proper professionals should cooperate to the benefit of the customer. Of course, if the builder gets all coy and uncooperative things will quickly go bad, but perhaps they should to protect the customer.

My friends employ professional people who are qualified to do the work and their work is scrutinised by 100’s of people every year at Crick.

 I take it you have been employed as a Surveyor to oversee builds and to make sure they comply with the RCR and sign the boat off? I take it you are a qualified boat Surveyor?

Edited June 21, 2021 by PD1964

[Captain Pegg]

Having spent a quarter of a century representing client interests on engineering contracts ranging from a few thousand to many millions of pounds I consider the idea of employing professional representation when spending a six figure sum of money in a field of which you have no technical knowledge is simply good, sound advice. It’s also a direct answer to the question posed by the OP to get back to the actual thread, and in any case I personally doubt there is a better value source of information and knowledge about canal boats in general than what Tony provides for free and with great patience on this forum.

 

So (some) boatbuilders may not like it. I’d say when attaching a six figure sum to your to product that’s tough. It isn’t tenable for the canal boat building industry to retain its cottage industry roots when placing such large sums of money at risk, which is the reality of what any contract does no matter the attitudes and skills of the parties involved. It will end badly for all parties sooner or later because the nature of the beast is that things do sometimes go wrong with even the best of suppliers and both they and the buyer need proper legal and financial protection when big sums of money are at stake.

 

Hence what @Tony Brooks says resonates with me. To me it strengthens the argument to buy second hand.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Captain Pegg

[Tony Brooks]

34 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

My friends employ professional people who are qualified to do the work and their work is scrutinised by 100’s of people every year at Crick.

 I take it you have been employed as a Surveyor to oversee builds and to make sure they comply with the RCR and sign the boat off? I take it you are a qualified boat Surveyor?

 

I am not, but I have worked in and around the inland industry and in associated fields since the late 1960s and I hold applicable academic trade and professional publications (not that I out that much store by paper qualifications). For the last 16 years I have been actively involved with helping ordinary boaters to resolve issues. Far too many of those issues have been the result of the builder/fitter not doing their job properly. In the worst cases I have come across boaters have lost their boats and money to rogue builders, as you would know if you had much interest in the industry. I am often forced to wonder what qualifications and background theory many boat builders/fitters in the inland industry posses.

 

Why you think people at Crick  actually scrutinise the boat builder's/fitter's work apart from at a cursory cosmetic level I don't know. Maybe it illustrates why you think boat builders/fitters are unlikely to do anything wrong. @Tracy D'arth has said much about her experience with the quality of certain boat builders' hulls and although I leave questions about hull building to others, my experience of the systems tends to confirm her views. How else does the OP guard against being sold a banana shaped boat, one that is asymmetrical, or even one that is over wide?

 

Your approach (as self admitted friend of boat builder's/fitter's) can be summed up as "trust me, I am a doctor". My approach, being aware of what has gone on and seems still to be going on, is to take such steps as the boater can to minimise their risk. If a builder/fitter is unwilling to be professionally scrutinised my advice would be to find another one who is because there is a chance are they are trying to hide something.

 

If any professional building something knows they will be subject to regular scrutiny before payment, in most cases they will be less likely to cut corners when the opportunity presents itself.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Your approach (as self admitted friend of boat builder's/fitter's) can be summed up as "trust me, I am a doctor". My approach, being aware of what has gone on and seems still to be going on, is to take such steps as the boater can to minimise their risk. If a builder/fitter is unwilling to be professionally scrutinised my advice would be to find another one who is because there is a chance are they are trying to hide something.

 

You could spend a not dissimilar amount having a house built. The Local Authority do not trust the builders to 'stick to the drawings and regulations' and they send out an inspector to ensure that at each stage (Foundations, up to ground level, 1st floor, second floor etc etc) the inspector checks and ensures Building regs compliance, and the build cannot proceed until he has signed it off at each stage. At completion a final 'Bulding Regs Compliant' certificate is issued.

 

Why should it be any different for an industry that has proven over many years an inabilty to consistently abide by specifications ?

 

Maybe we have hit a nerve ?

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[PD1964]

If the OP feels the need to employ a surveyor to check/oversee work that is being done by professional people who may be more qualified at their specific job then the surveyor then she needs to talk to the builder to their competency in building a boat. 
  How do you know the competency and professionalism of the surveyor? I would not employ a surveyor/project manager as I would have confidence in the builder I employed and knowing surveyor’s there’s a lot of bad ones out there.

Wow Alan another cut’n’paste?

 I would pick a builder that I know would produce a good boat, so no need for a Surveyor to check it. It’s all about having confidence in the builder you pick and if it’s not there you’ve chosen the wrong builder.

Edited June 21, 2021 by PD1964