Transfer of Ownership narrowboat

[Jasmin Patel]

Hi,

At the Pre-sale survey stage does anybody know of any good Solicitors who can help me draw up a Transfer of Ownership contract. I saw on the forum that there are online documents but I would like a qualified real person to help me. Based in London.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks All.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Jasmin Patel said:

Hi,

At the Pre-sale survey stage does anybody know of any good Solicitors who can help me draw up a Transfer of Ownership contract. I saw on the forum that there are online documents but I would like a qualified real person to help me. Based in London.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks All.

 

If you pay a solicitior to 'draw up' your contract then all they will do is use either the RYA one, or the Government (MCA) one.

 

Why not just use one of them yourself - they are both legal documents if they are signed and witnessed.

 

Bill Of Sale MCA.pdf

[Tam & Di]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you pay a solicitior to 'draw up' your contract then all they will do is use either the RYA one, or the Government (MCA) one and charge you a whole heap of money.

 

Even if this boat you are talking of is a fully registered Britsh ship with a registered number and paperwork allowing you to own 64/64 shares this is all it will come down to in the end. If it is a more ordinary narrow boat or similar then you will need to be able to specify exactly what it is you will own with dimensions and builder's number so it can be independently identified if necessary.

 

Tam

[Jasmin Patel]

Thanks for that, but how would I check for any any finance or loans held against the boat?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Jasmin Patel said:

Thanks for that, but how would I check for any any finance or loans held against the boat?

 

You cannot and neither can a solicitor.

 

The only record of a mortgage on a boat is if the boat is FULLY registered with the MCA on a Part 1 registration.

 

There is only a 0.00001% chance of you buying such a ship (Oil tanker, freighter, etc). Very very few privately owned ships are registed as Part 1.

 

What are you planning to buy ?

Edited May 25, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Jasmin Patel said:

Thanks for that, but how would I check for any any finance or loans held against the boat?

 

When we settled the marine mortgage on our boat the company sent us a letter confirming the finance was settled. Ask to see if the seller has got one.

 

Of course if the seller still has outstanding finance on the boat or has secured another loan against it this will be no help what so ever. I don't believe as a private individual you can gain access to such records in the same way as you can for a motor vehicle.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[Jasmin Patel]

Thanks for this, I will ask the owner.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Jasmin Patel said:

Thanks for this, I will ask the owner.

 

And, if the answer is 'no, no mortgage' irrespective of the true situation, how does that help you ?

 

By using (such as) the official MCA document the seller has to sign to say there is no mortgage outstanding, if subesquently someone comes and reclaims the boat, you at least have evidence that you brought it in good faith, and can then take action against the seller.

 

The number of times such problems occur on the Inland waterways is miniscule so it is not an issue.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

When we settled the marine mortgage on our boat the company sent us a letter confirming the finance was settled. Ask to see if the seller has got one.

 

 

 

 

And if he has never borrowed to pay for it he wont have one. I don't have such a letter

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And if he has never borrowed to pay for it he wont have one. I don't have such a letter

 

Er? Well if hes never borrowed to pay for it, then there will be no outstanding finance on it. So no problem.

 

The problem only comes if the seller misleads the buyer and there is in fact unsettled secured finance.

[ditchcrawler]

16 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Er? Well if hes never borrowed to pay for it, then there will be no outstanding finance on it. So no problem.

 

The problem only comes if the seller misleads the buyer and there is in fact unsettled secured finance.

But the OP doesn't know if that is the case or not, he will be taking the sellers word for it. Hopefully he is not buying a £120,000 boat for £40,000

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But the OP doesn't know if that is the case or not, he will be taking the sellers word for it. Hopefully he is not buying a £120,000 boat for £40,000

 

Yes that is the problem the OP is concerned about.

 

I was merely pointing if there has been finance on the boat there is a possible way of establishing if it has been settled or not, all be it offering pretty limited protection admittedly.

[enigmatic]

I'd probably ask the owner whether they took out any finance (probably not) before asking for evidence they're repaid it

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

The problem only comes if the seller misleads the buyer and there is in fact unsettled secured finance.

But how often is finance secured on the boat?  In most cases it is a personal loan, for which the original borrower remains liable even if he has sold the boat.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But how often is finance secured on the boat?  In most cases it is a personal loan, for which the original borrower remains liable even if he has sold the boat.

 

Is it?

 

Certainly marine mortgages are less comon than they used to be but there must still be boats around that have secured loans on them.

 

I refered to secured loans because the original poster specifically asked about them.

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Is it?

 

Certainly marine mortgages are less comon than they used to be but there must still be boats around that have secured loans on them.

 

I refered to secured loans because the original poster specifically asked about them.

 

 

Indeed. Just wanting to point out that secured loans are not that widespread.

 

Not that that helps a buyer who is told there is no outstanding finance secured on the boat when that turns out not to be the case.

 

[Tam & Di]

How does a marine mortgage work on a typical narrow boat - what does the mortgage company have that makes their loan secure? On a British Registered Ship it is recorded on the Ship's Papers, so if you buy that ship you would see the mortgage when the papers are transferred - there's not really any way to hide it. It's not dissimilar to a house mortgage in that sense. As Alan says, there are virtually no narrow boats with Part 1 Registry, so there are no official ownership documents for a buyer to demand other than perhaps a receipted invoice in the seller's name.

 

A handful of narrow boats might be on the Small Ship Register with an SSR number which would be marked on the boat, but that doesn't provide any proof of ownership, nor if there are any charges levied on it.

 

Tam

[David Mack]

30 odd years ago friends of ours had to get their narrow boat registered as a condition of the loan used to buy it, and proudly displayed the plaque and certificate in the cabin. No idea what type of registration it was. But even if registered, what's to stop an unscrupulous seller from removing any reference to the fact from the boat's paperwork, so the buyer is unaware?

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

A handful of narrow boats might be on the Small Ship Register with an SSR number which would be marked on the boat, but that doesn't provide any proof of ownership, nor if there are any charges levied on it.

 

 

As usual, you are correct.

 

The SSR part III specifically states :

 

 

Part III (commonly called the Small Ships Register – SSR) is for ships, which want only simple registration; it does not register 'title' and you cannot register mortgages on this part of the Register. It provides an inexpensive, simple registration, which proves the ship's nationality (a kind of passport).

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

30 odd years ago friends of ours had to get their narrow boat registered as a condition of the loan used to buy it, and proudly displayed the plaque and certificate in the cabin. No idea what type of registration it was. But even if registered, what's to stop an unscrupulous seller from removing any reference to the fact from the boat's paperwork, so the buyer is unaware?

 

 

Nothing, except if it is Part 1 registered (so a mortgage can be taken out and registered) you can access the information and see that there is a mortgage on the boat.

But getting Part 1 is not simple :

 

 

Before you start

You’ll need:

• the dimensions of your boat

• the previous registration details of the boat (if it’s been registered before)
• the bill of sale

• the radio signal detail - including your UK radio call sign, Maritime Mobile Service Identity (MMSI) number and International Maritime Organization (IMO) number
• the builders certificate

• a certificate of survey for tonnage and measurement

• an international tonnage certificate (ITC69)

• safety certificates


 

How many NB owners will have the original builders certificate, an official MCA Tonnage  / dimensions certificate, an international tonnage certificate, let alone an IMO registration number.

 

[David Mack]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Nothing, except if it is Part 1 registered (so a mortgage can be taken out and registered) you can access the information and see that there is a mortgage on the boat.

But since Part 1 registrations are so rare, what narrowboat buyer would even think of checking?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But since Part 1 registrations are so rare, what narrowboat buyer would even think of checking?

 

I'm sure very few even know of the register.

But I was answering your question :

 

21 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But even if registered, what's to stop an unscrupulous seller from removing any reference to the fact from the boat's paperwork, so the buyer is unaware?

 

There is nothing.

 

Just speculating on the 'hoops' your friend would have had to go thru to get registered (assuming it was Part I)

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

How does a marine mortgage work on a typical narrow boat - what does the mortgage company have that makes their loan secure? 

 

Im not sure exactly what you are meaning but on the paperwork for ours it basically said that if we defaulted on loan re payments they could take possession of the boat. This was with Roy Scot Larch. The boats name and CRT index number were on the documentation.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Im not sure exactly what you are meaning but on the paperwork for ours it basically said that if we defaulted on loan re payments they could take possession of the boat. This was with Roy Scot Larch. The boats name and CRT index number were on the documentation.

 

What was to stop you :

 

1) Just selling the boat

2) Re-registering it with C&RT

3) Stop paying and hide the boat.

4) Claim the boat was stolen.

 

I canot see that there is much security with a mobile 'thing' like a boat.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What was to stop you :

 

1) Just selling the boat

2) Re-registering it with C&RT

3) Stop paying and hide the boat.

4) Claim the boat was stolen.

 

Nothing I guess. Unless there was something in there that said they could seek financial redress in another way. I cant recall if there was or wasn't.

 

A number of those choices particularly 4 would leave one open to prosecution for fraud which most people wouldnt do, but of course a dishonest person may.

 

As for just selling the boat, this is the one really that some people may do. And if they carry on making the payments then there wont be an issue if the mortgage company are unaware.