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'Stop the spread of harmful plants and animals'


Ray T

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12 hours ago, droshky said:

No running

No bombing

No petting

 

The local baths in Holmfirth where i learnt to swim as a nipper had a cartoony sign with similar wordage, must have been a problem there as it said “no heavy petting”. Was a good few years until i found out what that actually meant ??

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42 minutes ago, BWM said:

Mink are much diminished from the numbers of the past, even though there may be a few locations where they are considered a problem. 

 Commercial fisheries have been erecting fencing to protect their stock but that is only part of the problem, crucian carp and wild carp are rare in their pure bred condition so otter predation is a real issue to these fragile populations - often in old estate lakes, mill pools and the like which are near impossible to protect. Many of our rivers no longer support viable spawning grounds, due to abstraction, agricultural run off and sewage release - hence the increase in record fish sizes from the 80's onwards. 

 The otter was traditionally (not exclusively) associated with the trout and salmon rivers and few of these have the runs of spawning fish that were their main target in the past. 

Actually where I said mink I meant otter.

I don't disagree with most of what you say but It not an otter issue, it's a habit issue, if the native fish populations are on a knife edge already there are bigger issues.

A healthy habitat requires predators, any population that collapses with the introduction of a previously existing predator is a none viable population, we should be improving habitats and gunning for those who damage them  not blaming native species.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Actually where I said mink I meant otter.

I don't disagree with most of what you say but It not an otter issue, it's a habit issue, if the native fish populations are on a knife edge already there are bigger issues.

A healthy habitat requires predators, any population that collapses with the introduction of a previously existing predator is a none viable population, we should be improving habitats and gunning for those who damage them  not blaming native species.

 

 

...which was the point i was making in the first place!

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1 hour ago, BWM said:

that is only part of the problem, crucian carp and wild carp are rare in their pure bred condition so otter predation is a real issue to these fragile populations -

Neither are indigenous species where as the Otter is.   They haven't evolved alongside our native species so will have a problem.

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2 minutes ago, BWM said:

...which was the point i was making in the first place!

Certainly from my reading it looked like you were blaming the otter rather than habitat loss, I'm sorry if I misrepresented you but it's one of those things that makes me twitch, fishermen with pike/otter, grouse moor owners with various Raptors, people are quick to blame the predators rather than actually addressing the real problem which is habitat loss/degradation.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Neither are indigenous species where as the Otter is.   They haven't evolved alongside our native species so will have a problem.

I must admit I thought crucian was native, live and learn.

The presence of carp and the various other species introduced into our lakes and rivers by fisheries I suspect holds some responsibility for the reduction of our native species, 40lb+ carp put a lot of pressure on food species 

8 minutes ago, jenevers said:

So what happened to yours?

It nicked all the pizzas and ran off down the sewers 

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22 hours ago, Jerra said:

Neither are indigenous species where as the Otter is.   They haven't evolved alongside our native species so will have a problem.

 The otter that has been reintroduced is the European otter, which may have crossed the land bridge during the ice age. Wild carp although not native have also been here for a very long time - either roman or monastic import, the crucian carp is unclear but may have been here since the bronze age. Both species are regarded as under threat internationally and as such all pure strain populations are regarded as in need of protection. 

22 hours ago, tree monkey said:

Certainly from my reading it looked like you were blaming the otter rather than habitat loss, I'm sorry if I misrepresented you but it's one of those things that makes me twitch, fishermen with pike/otter, grouse moor owners with various Raptors, people are quick to blame the predators rather than actually addressing the real problem which is habitat loss/degradation.

 

 

That's fine, but if you re read the post it makes sense but i'd agree it is an inflammatory subject. I regard a good population of pike as a sign of a healthy water, and where they are absent sickly fish and sudden wipeouts are common. 

 

22 hours ago, tree monkey said:

I must admit I thought crucian was native, live and learn.

The presence of carp and the various other species introduced into our lakes and rivers by fisheries I suspect holds some responsibility for the reduction of our native species, 40lb+ carp put a lot of pressure on food species 

It nicked all the pizzas and ran off down the sewers 

The wild carp are an entirely different fish, rarely reaching 10lb in weight, and our climate limits the spread of other carp as they can't generally breed successfully unless in shallow pools as the temperature requirements aren't maintained elsewhere. 

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16 minutes ago, BWM said:

 The otter that has been reintroduced is the European otter,

The European Otter Lutra lutra is the species native to the UK.

16 minutes ago, BWM said:

 

which may have crossed the land bridge during the ice age.

Most of the UK's (all?) mammals arrived like that.

16 minutes ago, BWM said:

 Wild carp although not native have also been here for a very long time - either roman or monastic import,t

Generally thought to be monastic into special ponds where they were reared for food.   Either way they are an introduced species just like mink, grey squirrels etc.

16 minutes ago, BWM said:

 

the crucian carp is unclear but may have been here since the bronze age. Both species are regarded as under threat internationally and as such all pure strain populations are regarded as in need of protection. 

Do you have a reference for this please?  

16 minutes ago, BWM said:

That's fine, but if you re read the post it makes sense but i'd agree it is an inflammatory subject. I regard a good population of pike as a sign of a healthy water, and where they are absent sickly fish and sudden wipeouts are common. 

 

The wild carp are an entirely different fish, rarely reaching 10lb in weight, and our climate limits the spread of other carp as they can't generally breed successfully unless in shallow pools as the temperature requirements aren't maintained elsewhere. 

 

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2 hours ago, BWM said:

 

The wild carp are an entirely different fish, rarely reaching 10lb in weight, and our climate limits the spread of other carp as they can't generally breed successfully unless in shallow pools as the temperature requirements aren't maintained elsewhere. 

I must admit I was surprised at this and although all I've found is anecdotal it seems to be correct, mostly it seems to be a water temperature issue, so shallow pools would be generally warmer I suppose.

All of which implies that the increase in carp numbers outside of the commercial fisheries would be illegal and legal stocking and escapes from breeding sites and fisheries

21 minutes ago, Jerra said:

 

Do you have a reference for this please?  

 

Anecdotal apparently and possibly introduced 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415527/

 

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4 hours ago, tree monkey said:

I must admit I was surprised at this and although all I've found is anecdotal it seems to be correct, mostly it seems to be a water temperature issue, so shallow pools would be generally warmer I suppose.

All of which implies that the increase in carp numbers outside of the commercial fisheries would be illegal and legal stocking and escapes from breeding sites and fisheries

Anecdotal apparently and possibly introduced 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415527/

 

Interesting link, a long read but was quite surprised to see that they think the pike may also have been introduced with carp as a food fish and is worthy of a similar study. With all the maybe's and grey areas, and the passing of time, the designation of native species is somewhat fluid - how much time passes before something can be regarded as indigenous? An introduction hundreds of years ago, walking or swimming over a temporary land bridge...our landscape would be and would have been very different if all were removed.

 I still think introducing an apex predator to a depleted and unhealthy ecosystem is beyond stupid.

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17 minutes ago, BWM said:

Interesting link, a long read but was quite surprised to see that they think the pike may also have been introduced with carp as a food fish and is worthy of a similar study. With all the maybe's and grey areas, and the passing of time, the designation of native species is somewhat fluid - how much time passes before something can be regarded as indigenous? An introduction hundreds of years ago, walking or swimming over a temporary land bridge...our landscape would be and would have been very different if all were removed.

 I still think introducing an apex predator to a depleted and unhealthy ecosystem is beyond stupid.

The native/none native thing is a bit tangled tbh, right now I imagine we are going to be very grateful the sycamore was introduced once Ash die back takes it's full toll, as an example, on the other hand theres a long list of none native introductions that are currently causing chaos.

 

Plus of course I'm not sure if we have any truly natural undisturbed landscape/habitats in this country anyway, our landscape is so heavily managed that what most people consider wild is only that way because of hundreds of years of management.

 

I understand your reticence about the apex predator thing but I personally think they would just not establish if the habitat is so weak.

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Yes, via plant imports from Europe, the original identified outbreak followed roadside planting schemes 

Pleased to see you prefer to say Europe rather than EU, there are lots of posters who would hold the EU to blame for a perfectly natural disease and it accidental introduction.

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1 hour ago, Jerra said:

Pleased to see you prefer to say Europe rather than EU, there are lots of posters who would hold the EU to blame for a perfectly natural disease and it accidental introduction.

What like me?

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5 hours ago, tree monkey said:

The native/none native thing is a bit tangled tbh, right now I imagine we are going to be very grateful the sycamore was introduced once Ash die back takes it's full toll, as an example, on the other hand theres a long list of none native introductions that are currently causing chaos.

 

Plus of course I'm not sure if we have any truly natural undisturbed landscape/habitats in this country anyway, our landscape is so heavily managed that what most people consider wild is only that way because of hundreds of years of management.

 

I understand your reticence about the apex predator thing but I personally think they would just not establish if the habitat is so weak.

 

 

 

 

Like any organism, it may thrive until that sustenance has gone and then doom for predator and prey.

 The list of introduced trees is so long that i doubt many would comprehend how bleak our landscape would be if all were removed! One native that has suffered without the attention received by Ash is the Alder, the victim of disease bought in on municipal plantings of Italian Alder - less likely to breed its way out of trouble than the Ash i suspect. I'm of the opinion that most of the troublesome imports date from the Victorian era onwards.

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