PVC coated copper

[jakenaljib]

Hi, does anyone know if using 10mm plastic coated copper is a good idea for lpg. The guy I’ve got coming to fit the system says it is but we can’t see anything on the BSS about it so just thought I’d check.

[Alan de Enfield]

39 minutes ago, jakenaljib said:

Hi, does anyone know if using 10mm plastic coated copper is a good idea for lpg. The guy I’ve got coming to fit the system says it is but we can’t see anything on the BSS about it so just thought I’d check.

 

When our house was built that type of piping was used (we are in a rural location and have an LPG tank) and when I asked why I was told it is standard practice for running the pipe underground as the pvc coating protects the copper from any 'attack' from anything in the soil.

 

I have never seen that type of piping used on the 18 boats I have owned, or anyone elses boat I have looked at, or worked on.

 

Are you sure he is a 'Boat Qualified' LPG installer ?

He will have a small card (like a Driving Licence) and it will show all the various categories he is authorised to work on. Being a Domestic LPG installer, or a Caravan LPG Installer is not the same as being a 'Boat LPG installer - totally different exam and certification.

 

 

Just as an aside, a gas safe engineer (not boat approved) installed a generator in his own boat, long story short, the fumes almost killed him and it did kill his wife and daughter with CO poisoning. (It was on Lake Windermere and widely reported)

 

It was different circumstances to 'installing new gas pipe', but it shows the differences and requirements between House, Caravans and Boats.

eg : Any gas leak on a caravan installation will 'drop thru the floor vents' and disperse into the atmosphere, any gas leak on a boat will sink into the bilges, build up until it gets to a critcal level and then 'BOOM'.

 

MAIB Report No 02/2015 - Arniston - Very Serious Marine Casualty (publishing.service.gov.uk)

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Bod]

The inspector will be looking at the pipe, to see if it conforms to the standards.  Being unable to see the actual pipe because of the covering, could rightly be a fail. (removable covering would not be a problem)

 

Bod.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Though most people paint the pipe, which is perfectly fine and acceptable to BSS inspectors, so you end up effectively with a plastic coated copper pipe anyway. BSS inspectors get anxious if they see something unexpected. No need for a PVC coated copper on a boat, so why do it?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Though most people paint the pipe, which is perfectly fine and acceptable to BSS inspectors, so you end up effectively with a plastic coated copper pipe anyway. BSS inspectors get anxious if they see something unexpected. No need for a PVC coated copper on a boat, so why do it?

 

More money for the installer.

[Tracy D'arth]

I can see no reason for not using it but 10mm metric pipe may make getting a range of compression fittings from the average chandler may be a bit of a problem. Imperial fittings are more common.

 

Plastic coated was made for burying and chasing into walls and floors so that lime mortar and plaster did not attack the copper. Its domestic stuff.

[Tony Brooks]

Did we not learn a while ago that the metric stuff has a thinner wall so will collapse under the olive more easily and may not meet some regulation or another.

[ditchcrawler]

Its probably easier to get hold of 

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

More money for the installer.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Did we not learn a while ago that the metric stuff has a thinner wall so will collapse under the olive more easily and may not meet some regulation or another.

I think this may refer to the difference between what is metric microbore plumbing pipe wall thickness and fully annealed soft drawn imperial refrigeration copper tube. 

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Did we not learn a while ago that the metric stuff has a thinner wall so will collapse under the olive more easily and may not meet some regulation or another.

 

 

I seem to remember that in fact the wall thickness requirement has been removed changed in the RCD.

 

I'll see if I can find it.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I seem to remember that in fact the wall thickness requirement has been removed changed in the RCD.

 

I'll see if I can find it.

 

 

2008 Requirements :

 

6.2 Piping

 

6.2.1 Only solid drawn copper or drawn stainless steel piping, which are galvanically compatible, shall be used for rigid supply lines.

Wall thickness for piping shall be greater than 0,8 mm for piping up to 12 mm outside diameter and a minimum of 1,5 mm for an outside diameter greater than 12 mm.

 

6.2.2 There shall be no joints or fittings in piping passing through engine compartments.

6.2.3 Metallic LPG supply piping routed through engine compartments shall be protected by conduit or trunking, or supported by non-abrasive attachments which are no more than 300 mm apart.

6.2.4 Fittings for connections and joints in piping shall be metallic and of any of the following types: ⎯ hard soldered connections; ⎯ cutting ring fittings in accordance with ISO 8434-1:2007, Table 4 (see also 6.4.2, 6.4.4, 6.4.5); ⎯ copper rings on copper piping; stainless steel rings on stainless steel piping; ⎯ connections in accordance with EN 560. Jointing compound for flared fittings or flared rings shall not be used.

6.2.5 Piping shall be installed above bilge water as high as practicable.

6.2.6 Piping shall be made up with as few fittings as practicable. Joints and fittings shall be readily accessible.

 

 

2014 Requirements :

 

Pipe lines for LPG systems are, as far as practicable, to be of a single continuous length of solid drawn copper piping or drawn stainless steel piping from the cylinder housing or locker to the appliance or the shut-off valve. Thereafter, the piping is to be a further continuous length of solid drawn copper piping or drawn stainless steel piping to the appliance.

 

The minimum wall thickness for piping shall be 0.6mm for O.D. (outside diameter) less than or equal to 12mm and 0.9mm for piping greater than 12mm.

[Tracy D'arth]

From dim memory the wall thickness of 10mm microbore tube is 0.9mm.

[blackrose]

8 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Though most people paint the pipe, which is perfectly fine and acceptable to BSS inspectors, so you end up effectively with a plastic coated copper pipe anyway. BSS inspectors get anxious if they see something unexpected. No need for a PVC coated copper on a boat, so why do it?

 

Do they? I never heard of anyone doing that. What's the point of painting copper pipe?

I thought all gas pipework on boats had to be in soft "refrigeration quality" which comes in coils. Plastic coated pipe sounds like it comes in rigid lengths. How are you going to avoid unnecessary joints with that stuff unless it's less than a 3m system.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Just now, blackrose said:

 

Do they? I never heard of anyone doing that. What's the point of painting copper pipe?

When it goes through a cabin and is visible. Aesthetic reasons. Also no need to mask off the pipe when painting around it. Painted ply lining on my boat from new, not veneer. 4 BSS inspections so far. Never commented on. I did ask when it was installed!

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Do they? I never heard of anyone doing that. What's the point of painting copper pipe?

 

One reason could be to conform with colour coding for what the pipe caries if you are that pernickety and know about such things.

[ditchcrawler]

39 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

 Plastic coated pipe sounds like it comes in rigid lengths. How are you going to avoid unnecessary joints with that stuff unless it's less than a 3m system.

It comes in coils but its more expensive than naked copper https://www.screwfix.com/c/heating-plumbing/copper-pipe/cat831552?productdiameter=10_mm

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It comes in coils but its more expensive than naked copper https://www.screwfix.com/c/heating-plumbing/copper-pipe/cat831552?productdiameter=10_mm

 

And, you have to strip the plastic coating back to enable the joints / fittings to be used.

[Ex Brummie]

I used pvc coated copper for my main gas run, 15mm, and also for the oil supply 10mm, to my Bubble stove. The pipe is the same spec as the naked stuff, so no BSS problems. The pvc offers some mechanical protection, I used the 15mm pvc because it was more readily available in soft copper coils than bare stuff. ( I already had it), and likewise for the oil pipe. I am an oil boiler service and repair technician.

If I had to buy it from scratch, I would have used bare pipe.

[jakenaljib]

On 20/05/2021 at 13:45, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

2008 Requirements :

 

6.2 Piping

 

6.2.1 Only solid drawn copper or drawn stainless steel piping, which are galvanically compatible, shall be used for rigid supply lines.

Wall thickness for piping shall be greater than 0,8 mm for piping up to 12 mm outside diameter and a minimum of 1,5 mm for an outside diameter greater than 12 mm.

 

6.2.2 There shall be no joints or fittings in piping passing through engine compartments.

6.2.3 Metallic LPG supply piping routed through engine compartments shall be protected by conduit or trunking, or supported by non-abrasive attachments which are no more than 300 mm apart.

6.2.4 Fittings for connections and joints in piping shall be metallic and of any of the following types: ⎯ hard soldered connections; ⎯ cutting ring fittings in accordance with ISO 8434-1:2007, Table 4 (see also 6.4.2, 6.4.4, 6.4.5); ⎯ copper rings on copper piping; stainless steel rings on stainless steel piping; ⎯ connections in accordance with EN 560. Jointing compound for flared fittings or flared rings shall not be used.

6.2.5 Piping shall be installed above bilge water as high as practicable.

6.2.6 Piping shall be made up with as few fittings as practicable. Joints and fittings shall be readily accessible.

 

 

2014 Requirements :

 

Pipe lines for LPG systems are, as far as practicable, to be of a single continuous length of solid drawn copper piping or drawn stainless steel piping from the cylinder housing or locker to the appliance or the shut-off valve. Thereafter, the piping is to be a further continuous length of solid drawn copper piping or drawn stainless steel piping to the appliance.

 

The minimum wall thickness for piping shall be 0.6mm for O.D. (outside diameter) less than or equal to 12mm and 0.9mm for piping greater than 12mm.

Thanks for the info and concern.

I did think plastic coating wasn't nessecary but the person coming to fit is a friend of a friend who usually fits boilers in houses so he must be used to using it.

I am going to get the work checked by a boat qualified lpg installer when its done!

could anyone explain to me '6.2.5 Piping shall be installed above bilge water as high as practicable.'

I ask because my gas appliances are on the same side of the boat as the log burner so really want to avoid running gas pipes past the stove and exposing them to potentially a lot of heat, don't think I would sleep too well! so I have to cross the boat and the easiest way to do that is by routing a grove in the subfloor

[BEngo]

You can pass Propane or Butane as a gas  through nearly red hot copper pipe  and it will not burn.  There is no oxygen for it to be able to  burn.

Red hot pipe might be an issue, because of mechanical strength, not of burning gas though.  Your stove will be causing bigger problems than to  the gas pipe if it is getting that hot.

 

Run the shortest gas pipe you can with the minimum of joints.

 

N

 

[Tracy D'arth]

6 minutes ago, jakenaljib said:

Thanks for the info and concern.

I did think plastic coating wasn't nessecary but the person coming to fit is a friend of a friend who usually fits boilers in houses so he must be used to using it.

I am going to get the work checked by a boat qualified lpg installer when its done!

could anyone explain to me '6.2.5 Piping shall be installed above bilge water as high as practicable.'

I ask because my gas appliances are on the same side of the boat as the log burner so really want to avoid running gas pipes past the stove and exposing them to potentially a lot of heat, don't think I would sleep too well! so I have to cross the boat and the easiest way to do that is by routing a grove in the subfloor

I would accept a pipe in a groove in the floor provided it was well protected from damage. Running gas pipes under the floor i.e. in the bilge , is not recommended.

 

I would have no qualms about running a protected gas pipe behind a fire/stove at floor level as far away as practicable. Many boats have pipes run at gunwale level past stoves. 

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, jakenaljib said:

Thanks for the info and concern.

I did think plastic coating wasn't nessecary but the person coming to fit is a friend of a friend who usually fits boilers in houses so he must be used to using it.

I am going to get the work checked by a boat qualified lpg installer when its done!

could anyone explain to me '6.2.5 Piping shall be installed above bilge water as high as practicable.'

I ask because my gas appliances are on the same side of the boat as the log burner so really want to avoid running gas pipes past the stove and exposing them to potentially a lot of heat, don't think I would sleep too well! so I have to cross the boat and the easiest way to do that is by routing a grove in the subfloor

I would check that the friend of the friend knows the requirements  for boats before spending money on something that may not pass later inspections, note the wall thickness as used in houses

[Tam & Di]

6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would check that the friend of the friend knows the requirements  for boats before spending money on something that may not pass later inspections

Exactly the point I was just going to make but you have quicker fingers

 

Tam

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

I would check that the friend of the friend knows the requirements  for boats before spending money on something that may not pass later inspections, note the wall thickness as used in houses

 

 

Which is now acceptable (wall thickness) in the revised RCD requirements.

 

 

17 minutes ago, jakenaljib said:

I did think plastic coating wasn't nessecary but the person coming to fit is a friend of a friend who usually fits boilers in houses so he must be used to using it.

I am going to get the work checked by a boat qualified lpg installer when its done!

 

 

I'd suggest that the friend of a friend reads EN10239 2014 or 2017  (Gas Installation in Boats) to ensure that he installs it compliantly - it would be a waste of time money and materials if the boat approved examiner came to sign-it-off and had to condemn it as non compliant. He should be aware of the requirements for 'trunking' it thru the engine room and any bulkheads, for the fixing spacing requirements and the requirement to not have joints and, where a joint is necessary, solder joints are not allowed. The rules for boat installations are NOT the same as for domestic installations.

[Tony Brooks]

59 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I would accept a pipe in a groove in the floor provided it was well protected from damage. Running gas pipes under the floor i.e. in the bilge , is not recommended.

 

I would have no qualms about running a protected gas pipe behind a fire/stove at floor level as far away as practicable. Many boats have pipes run at gunwale level past stoves. 

 

And there should be an air gap behind the non-combustible stove surround in which to run the pipe. If the pipe in that gap gets hot enough to cause a danger the boat would probably have been on fire for  a while.