Etiquette on having a smoky engine

[cheesegas]

Hi all. On the way down to Uxbridge recently to get my boat blacked, I came up behind a 40' or so boat, looked in reasonable nick from the outside but was moving at idle speed and chucking out clouds of dense blue/white smoke. Not nice to have in your face for hours as there was a very light headwind and his idle was a tad slower than mine. The GU isn't terribly wide at that point so I gave him the appropriate honk and moved out to pass. Sounded like he had a knackered BMC limping along on three cylinders, burning as much lube oil as diesel. Aware that because of the wind he may not know about it, so as I passed I politely let him know about the smokescreen he was leaving behind. In return I got an earful of abuse about how that's what all old boats do and it's normal and I'm young and don't know anything. He then angrily tried to speed up but his engine didn't co-operate... Luckily I didn't meet him at the next lock.

 

Previously, most people have let me pass if they're aware their engine is smoky. Anyone else had such smoke-based aggression?

 

As the BSS doesn't cover anything like this, it's all down to the owner to work out what's reasonable given the age of the engine etc. I know that older semi/hot bulb diesels smoke through design even if in perfect condition, but that's nothing compared to a proper smokescreen. Don't want it to get to the point where we all need Euro6 engines with unreliable emissions control stuff like DEF injection and a DPF to clog up, but if it poses a hazard to your lungs and navigation it needs checking...

 

My boat is over 30 years old with its original indirect injection engine and smoked heavily under load when I bought it thanks to a dodgy injector, but before taking it out I was careful to get it to a good condition where it doesn't smoke. Well ok, a little puff of black exhaust maybe when going from forward to reverse...

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

As the BSS

 

It doesn't, but the RCD/RCR does and now it has been announced that the RCD / RCR is 'for life' and the boat must remain compliant, action could be taken against any boat whose engine does not meet the RCD / RCD emission levels.

 

Obviously any pre 1998 boats are not affected by this ruling.

[Arthur Marshall]

No excuse for abuse. Some people just seem to resent being overtaken, which is as daft in a boat as it would be in a car. And I'd probably gone past him too  though it might have been a bit tactless commenting on his engine!

[Bee]

An engine has to be pretty poor to be really smoky all the time. Chances are that the owner will only worry when it simply won't run any more and if that's the case he won't worry about anybody else either. Best thing is to stop for a cup of tea and let him go off and annoy everybody else. Second best thing is to have an argument.  Personally I favour the latter as its more fun but its not very sensible. 

[Hudds Lad]

14 minutes ago, Bee said:

An engine has to be pretty poor to be really smoky all the time. Chances are that the owner will only worry when it simply won't run any more and if that's the case he won't worry about anybody else either. Best thing is to stop for a cup of tea and let him go off and annoy everybody else. Second best thing is to have an argument.  Personally I favour the latter as its more fun but its not very sensible. 

 

Is that a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

[cheesegas]

25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It doesn't, but the RCD/RCR does and now it has been announced that the RCD / RCR is 'for life' and the boat must remain compliant, action could be taken against any boat whose engine does not meet the RCD / RCD emission levels.

 

Obviously any pre 1998 boats are not affected by this ruling.

Interesting, thanks. Didn't know that RCD was for life, thought it was only in the design/build stages, think I need to have a read.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

No excuse for abuse. Some people just seem to resent being overtaken, which is as daft in a boat as it would be in a car. And I'd probably gone past him too  though it might have been a bit tactless commenting on his engine!

Yeah, I thought maybe he may not be aware due to the wind, and it had suddenly gone from smoky to peasouper without him noticing...but that was wishful thinking!

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Interesting, thanks. Didn't know that RCD was for life, thought it was only in the design/build stages, think I need to have a read.

 

It was changed / revised in 2017

[Jennifer McM]

Follow the link for the recording...?

 

http://www.waterwaysongs.info/Songs/G/grumpy_old_boater.htm

 

Quote

Grumpy Old Boater

by Ian H Bruce (2016)

 

Water temperature's rising, the oil pressure's low

He's coughing out black smoke wherever he goes

He should service the engine but we daren’t tell him so

For he is a grumpy old boater

 

Baggy jeans, oily tee-shirt, and scuffed leather boots

An abrasive old misfit, too fond of disputes

For politeness and manners he don’t give two hoots

For he is a grumpy old boater

 

Irksome and set in misogynous ways

He lives in the past, dreams of long bygone days

An outspoken critic of all he surveys

For he is a grumpy old boater

 

When boaters greet him he just cuts them dead

Averting his eyes he stares straight ahead

"How do?" and "Good Morning" and are words left unsaid

For he is a grumpy old boater

 

He'll shout and he'll swear at boats passing by

'Cos he thinks they're too fast and he’ll never see why

He can’t be a candidate for ‘Mr Nice Guy’

For he is a grumpy old boater

 

Alone on his boat through the long winter storms

He's a churlish hothead when the temperature warms

It's 'Bah Humbug' to summer and those leisure boat swarms

For he is a grumpy old boater

 

That queue at the locks just couldn't be worse

While stopped does he chat? No, quite the reverse

He'll gripe and he'll groan, he’ll chunter and curse

For he is a grumpy old boater

 

So take note grumpy boater, you know who you are

On tow-path, afloat, or propping up bar

A cantankerous dipstick who just goes too far

So push off you grumpy old boater

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It doesn't, but the RCD/RCR does and now it has been announced that the RCD / RCR is 'for life' and the boat must remain compliant, action could be taken against any boat whose engine does not meet the RCD / RCD emission levels.

Who will be checking the emissions?

[Mad Harold]

48 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Who will be checking the emissions?

Probably no one.

However if your donkey is chucking out clouds of shizer,you will lose your popularity!?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Who will be checking the emissions?

 

No one checking but 30,000 others who could report it.

[nbfiresprite]

ONe person who may start checking the emissions coming from boat engines within Greater London would be 'Sadiq Khan' as he clearly has thing about emissions from boats on the Regents, Grand Union and Lower River Lee.  These portable emissions analyzers are getting smaller and lighter.

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

59 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Probably no one.

However if your donkey is chucking out clouds of shizer,you will lose your popularity!?

Particularly with those behind you in the tunnel

[Bee]

3 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

 

Is that a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

Oh that'll be the full half hour and then another half hour recounting it in the pub later

[nicknorman]

4 hours ago, cheesegas said:

Hi all. On the way down to Uxbridge recently to get my boat blacked, I came up behind a 40' or so boat, looked in reasonable nick from the outside but was moving at idle speed and chucking out clouds of dense blue/white smoke. Not nice to have in your face for hours as there was a very light headwind and his idle was a tad slower than mine. The GU isn't terribly wide at that point so I gave him the appropriate honk and moved out to pass. Sounded like he had a knackered BMC limping along on three cylinders, burning as much lube oil as diesel. Aware that because of the wind he may not know about it, so as I passed I politely let him know about the smokescreen he was leaving behind. In return I got an earful of abuse about how that's what all old boats do and it's normal and I'm young and don't know anything. He then angrily tried to speed up but his engine didn't co-operate... Luckily I didn't meet him at the next lock.

 

Previously, most people have let me pass if they're aware their engine is smoky. Anyone else had such smoke-based aggression?

 

As the BSS doesn't cover anything like this, it's all down to the owner to work out what's reasonable given the age of the engine etc. I know that older semi/hot bulb diesels smoke through design even if in perfect condition, but that's nothing compared to a proper smokescreen. Don't want it to get to the point where we all need Euro6 engines with unreliable emissions control stuff like DEF injection and a DPF to clog up, but if it poses a hazard to your lungs and navigation it needs checking...

 

My boat is over 30 years old with its original indirect injection engine and smoked heavily under load when I bought it thanks to a dodgy injector, but before taking it out I was careful to get it to a good condition where it doesn't smoke. Well ok, a little puff of black exhaust maybe when going from forward to reverse...

Unfortunately some people are just entitled angry arseholes. The closer to London you get, the more likely you are to encounter one.  I suppose my only point would be that surely he must have already known his engine was faulty and so I’d have passed him without comment, save for donning that handy WW2 gas mask that we keep for special occasions.

[Momac]

48 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No one checking but 30,000 others who could report it.

What is the procedure for reporting a smoky boat?

A smoky  truck or bus can be reported but not sure about boats.

https://www.gov.uk/report-smoky-vehicle

 

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It doesn't, but the RCD/RCR does and now it has been announced that the RCD / RCR is 'for life' and the boat must remain compliant, action could be taken against any boat whose engine does not meet the RCD / RCD emission levels.

 

Obviously any pre 1998 boats are not affected by this ruling.

 

And presumably any post 1998/pre 2017 self- fitout boats that weren't fitted to RCD standards?

Edited May 13, 2021 by blackrose

[magnetman]

Maybe he had a bladeful. Prop fouling not at all unusual in that area and yes it does increase loading and is liable to cause smoky exhaust. 

 

I would have suggested this when passing. 

[cheesegas]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Maybe he had a bladeful. Prop fouling not at all unusual in that area and yes it does increase loading and is liable to cause smoky exhaust. 

 

I would have suggested this when passing. 

If you were to give it full throttle with a fouled prop, it'll make black smoke as the engine is overfuelled - blue smoke indicates that it's burning lube oil and is generally worn out. Could be valve guides/seals or rings, engine refurb time! 

[roland elsdon]

Confucius say one mans smoky knacker is another mans perfectly running lister.

[Arthur Marshall]

6 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Confucius say one mans smoky knacker is another mans perfectly running lister.

That may be, but he'd have to shout if he wanted anyone to hear him...

[roland elsdon]

40 years of owning H series listers means I rarely hear anything new, or anything really.

[magnetman]

45 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

If you were to give it full throttle with a fouled prop, it'll make black smoke as the engine is overfuelled - blue smoke indicates that it's burning lube oil and is generally worn out. Could be valve guides/seals or rings, engine refurb time! 

If your aim was to create conflict then complain about the nackered engine yes but if you simply wanted to make a non technical point about the smoke then the prop foul comment works better in that scenario

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

What is the procedure for reporting a smoky boat?

A smoky  truck or bus can be reported but not sure about boats.

https://www.gov.uk/report-smoky-vehicle

 

 

I have no idea but as in the UK Trading Standards are responsible for the implementation, monitoring and taking RCD / RCR cases to court, that'd be where I'd start.

 

 

13. Enforcement and penalties Enforcement In Great Britain, the local weights and measures authorities (more commonly referred to as “Trading Standards”), are the market surveillance authorities responsible for enforcement of these Regulations. The Regulations also provide powers to the Secretary of State or a person appointed to act on their behalf to enforce the Regulations and RAMS (Regulation (EC 765/2008), as amended by the Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which sets out requirements for market surveillance of products). 

 

The Regulations provide the power for market surveillance authorities to take action against economic operators for products that are not in conformity with the Regulations or that present a risk. There are requirements on economic operators and private importers to co-operate with the enforcement authority as appropriate on request.

 

Market surveillance authorities (local trading standards authorities) must continue to have regard to the Regulators’ Code when developing the policies and operational procedures that guide their regulatory activities in this area. They should carry out their activities in a way that supports those they regulate to comply and grow, including choosing proportionate approaches that reflect risk. In responding to non-compliance that they identify, regulators should clearly explain what the non-compliant item or activity is, the advice being given, actions required, or decisions taken, and the reasons for these. Unless immediate action is needed to prevent a serious breach, regulators should provide an opportunity for dialogue in relation to the advice, requirements or decisions, with a view to ensuring that they are acting in a way that is proportionate and consistent. The Secretary of State takes account of the provisions of both the Regulators’ Code and the Growth Duty in exercising his regulatory functions.

 

A link to the Regulators’ Code can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulators-code

 

The UK market surveillance authority will take all appropriate measures to withdraw from the market, to prohibit or restrict the supply of products which may endanger the health and safety of persons, property or the environment. Penalties A person committing an offence under the Regulations may be liable to a penalty.

 

Penalties can include a fine or a prison sentence of up to three months for the most serious offences. It is matter for the enforcing authority to decide whether prosecution is appropriate in each case taking into account the circumstances of the case and the enforcement authorities’ own policies, operational procedures and practices in line with the Regulators’ Code. Should a prosecution take place, it is at the discretion of the court to decide the penalties imposed on the offender

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have no idea but as in the UK Trading Standards are responsible for the implementation, monitoring and taking RCD / RCR cases to court, that'd be where I'd start.

 

 

13. Enforcement and penalties Enforcement In Great Britain, the local weights and measures authorities (more commonly referred to as “Trading Standards”), are the market surveillance authorities responsible for enforcement of these Regulations. The Regulations also provide powers to the Secretary of State or a person appointed to act on their behalf to enforce the Regulations and RAMS (Regulation (EC 765/2008), as amended by the Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which sets out requirements for market surveillance of products). 

 

The Regulations provide the power for market surveillance authorities to take action against economic operators for products that are not in conformity with the Regulations or that present a risk. There are requirements on economic operators and private importers to co-operate with the enforcement authority as appropriate on request.

 

Market surveillance authorities (local trading standards authorities) must continue to have regard to the Regulators’ Code when developing the policies and operational procedures that guide their regulatory activities in this area. They should carry out their activities in a way that supports those they regulate to comply and grow, including choosing proportionate approaches that reflect risk. In responding to non-compliance that they identify, regulators should clearly explain what the non-compliant item or activity is, the advice being given, actions required, or decisions taken, and the reasons for these. Unless immediate action is needed to prevent a serious breach, regulators should provide an opportunity for dialogue in relation to the advice, requirements or decisions, with a view to ensuring that they are acting in a way that is proportionate and consistent. The Secretary of State takes account of the provisions of both the Regulators’ Code and the Growth Duty in exercising his regulatory functions.

 

A link to the Regulators’ Code can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulators-code

 

The UK market surveillance authority will take all appropriate measures to withdraw from the market, to prohibit or restrict the supply of products which may endanger the health and safety of persons, property or the environment. Penalties A person committing an offence under the Regulations may be liable to a penalty.

 

Penalties can include a fine or a prison sentence of up to three months for the most serious offences. It is matter for the enforcing authority to decide whether prosecution is appropriate in each case taking into account the circumstances of the case and the enforcement authorities’ own policies, operational procedures and practices in line with the Regulators’ Code. Should a prosecution take place, it is at the discretion of the court to decide the penalties imposed on the offender

Do you think this smokey old thing was built to RCD requirements and has been registered, most of the ones I have seen like that tend to be a bit pre 2000