Training for novice hirers?

[NB Alnwick]

Yesterday I witnessed two potentially fatal near miss accidents. A couple of first time hirers appeared to be having difficulty controlling their hire craft - at the first narrow bridge that they encountered they put the tiller over hard the wrong way causing the boat to head for the brick abutment. They then put the boat in reverse and when the boat collided with the brickwork they both lost their balance and almost fell over the stern. Then at their first lock, they clearly had no clue as to what to do - I watched one of the pair jump ashore from the stern in bare feet and that person clearly hurt one or both feet because they almost fell-in backwards and subsequently limped badly. At the same time the steerer had put the boat in gear astern - so if the person had have fallen in, the boat would have gone over them. Then although they were going uphill and the lock was empty, they tried to open the top paddles. By this time, I was ashore, having tied up, and I was able to explain the process of working the locks. The steerer said that they had a 20 minute explanation of how to manage the boat but could not remember the explanation of how locks were to be negotiated!

I know that before I hired for the first time I spent a lot of time watching boaters going through locks and bought books about boating. I also had experience of small boats and diesel engines. Even so there is a lot to remember when taking a boat out for the first time.

Fortunately, there have been few deaths to hirers* on the the canals but that is not an excuse for the lack of adequate training. My view is that C&RT should require hire companies to provide a minimum of half a days safety training to all novice boaters and that this should include a practical demonstration of taking a boat through a lock.

 

* The one I remember was on nb Harry (hired from Kate Boats) which occurred in a lock near Cropredy. The boat is now in private ownership and I saw her moored on Oxford Canal waterside moorings at Newbold near Rugby yesterday.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by NB Alnwick

[mrsmelly]

As someone who has managed a hire fleet there are many points there that need addressing. The main problem is that the vast majority of hireres having paid a substantial amount of money simply want to go asap and dont listen. Half a days tuition for instance on a weekends hire is simply impossible and unworkable. Location of hire base is also a major point. I worked the Thames and from lower heyford bases. At lower heyford every hirer ( not day boats ) were shown through a lock as there was one either north or south not far from the base but many hire fleets are too far away so have to use models and explanation. All hirers are sent a book and indeed used to be sent a dvd showing many boating safety tips but having asked people if they had watched them I oft got the reply sorry I didnt think it was worth watching. Then of course they turn up usualy sober but within an hour some are well cranking the alcohol especialy younger parties. These people are on holiday so just that fact alone makes getting any salient points through and nearly always have a table booked in some pub they need to get to in time etc etc. It also has to be said that any private buyer can just pay their money and move off regardless so that maybe should also be addressed?

[Guest]

Unfortunately not all hire boat bases are in close proximity to locks. Eg Ashby Boats so practical lock training may not always be poss.

 

Cross posted with Tim

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

It also has to be said that any private buyer can just pay their money and move off regardless so that maybe should also be addressed?

 

I believe we are one of the very few countries that do not require training and a licence for owners.

 

France for example :

 

In French waters, a boat licence is necessary to be able to operate a boat when the power of the motor or motors exceeds 4.5 kilowatts or 6 horsepower. There are three different licences:

• Carte Mer - daytime coastal sailing, 6 to 50 HP;

• Permis Mer Côtier - nighttime sailing, further offshore, over 50 HP;

• Permis Mer Hauturier - high seas, all forms of boating.

For inland waterways, there are separate specific licences. Licences to operate motorised pleasure craft are for non-commercial use only.

 

Anyone wishing to sail for commercial purposes must obtain the relevant professional qualification. More information is available through the Ministry of Ecology, Sustainable Development, Transport and Housing. 

 

 

 

 

ICC plus CEVNI

If as a visitor you are planning to use the French canals and rivers, the boat’s skipper must have an ICC certificate as endorsed for Inland Waters (having also passed the CEVNI exam).

Inland waterway regulations come into effect once a vessel is upstream of the seaward limit of each estuary. The category of licence required is determined by the size of craft and the power of the engine.

Paradoxically, hire boat skippers (i.e the most inexperienced) need no qualifications at all (merely some very limited tuition) and this is another reason why hire boats should be treated with caution by more seasoned boaters, especially those piloting their own craft.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

 It also has to be said that any private buyer can just pay their money and move off regardless so that maybe should also be addressed?

 

I recall once helping two guys who had collected a 'probate' boat from Goole and were moving it South. They hadn't the foggiest so I helped them with the lock at West Bramwith. Someone I think had operated Sykehouse Lock for them. By their own admission they didn't have a clue as neither of them had stepped on a boat to take control of themselves in their lives.

 

After they headed off I twigged they must have been heading for the Trent!! (But at least they had the good sense not to go via Trent Falls I guess).

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[Ray T]

Slight digression as Tim says: "It also has to be said that any private buyer can just pay their money and move off regardless so that maybe should also be addressed?"

 

A few years ago we were moored at the bottom of the Buckby flight, a boat with a young couple and what transpired to be her father came out of Whilton and turned left.
They got to the bottom lock, the lady got off the boat, windlass in hand got to the bottom gate and proceeded to look blankly at the lock. I was passing with the dog and asked if I could help? 

The lady explained they had just bought the boat and were heading to Braunston, never having owned or been on a boat before. This was 3.00pm and they had an appointment at Braunston at 5.00pm!

I took the dog to our boat, fetched my windlass and proceeded to show the young couple how to work locks. I also explained getting to Braunston by boat, in two hours, was completely out of the question and why.

I took them through the next two locks and observed them going through the third.

 

Sometimes as Graham indicates people need to take responsibility for their own actions.

 

A different view on hiring. 

We hired from Shire Cruisers, Sowerby Bridge on 6 occasions.

On one of the latter ones I explained at the handover that I had hired from Shire several times before and said to the young man if he had anything else he wished to do I was happy to take the boat from there.

He got somewhat shirty and said it was a "legal requirement"  for him to carry out a handover.

He then proceeded to treat me in a patronising manner.

 

It can also depend on how the handover is carried out.

I have hired enough times to realise that the handover process can be a trial for boat hire operatives.

 

I am unsure if there is any real answer.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Ray T

[Rob-M]

I used to do turn round for Alvechurch, handovers were usually performed by one person for external and a different person for internal so it wasn't just one member of the group getting information overload.  If the hirers were heading for Tardebigge then someone went with them to show them how to work a lock.

When we first hired I said I was experienced so the handover consisted of me winding the boat and the guy then stepped of and wished us a happy holiday.  I've never had lock tuition on any of the hirers we did and the hire company always took my word that I knew what I was doing.

[pearley]

We hired our first boat in 1979 from Canalcraft at what is now ABC Hire at Anderson. We had one of their staff showing us what to do as far as the first bridge going South with a promise that someone would meet us a Big Lock.

 

We arrived at dusk and were standing looking at the lock when someone came out of the pub and proceeded to show us what to do. It wasn't until he'd finished we realised he was just a drinker on his way home.

 

Like Rob M we hired every year after that and no one ever gave us instruction on locking, not even Alvechurch.

Edited May 12, 2021 by pearley

[Detling]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I believe we are one of the very few countries that do not require training and a licence for owners.

 

France for example :

 

In French waters, a boat licence is necessary to be able to operate a boat when the power of the motor or motors exceeds 4.5 kilowatts or 6 horsepower. There are three different licences:

 

Not if you hire a holiday boat. otherwise there would be no hire industry.

 

 

 

[IanD]

The simple fact is that given the number of novice hirers at the moment, requiring half a days training for them -- which I agree is not a bad idea, but must include actually being taken out and through locks and showing that they can steer/control the boat -- just wouldn't work with the way hire bases function today.

 

One problem is there simply aren't enough experienced staff at the bases to spend half a day with each novice hirer, and the second is that most hirers want turnaround to be at the weekend for obvious reasons. Even if turnarounds were spread evenly over the week I doubt that most bases could meet the training demand without taking on extra staff, since one person could only turn round two boats per day.

 

It does seem that some hire bases are negligent about the training they provide, though the ones I've hired from (including Shire) seem better than most -- but then I tend to use the more expensive firms with good reputations.

Edited May 12, 2021 by IanD

[Detling]

I have helped boater though locks as required. We once met a boat that had done 12 locks upwards but were puzzling over how to go downwards. I have also learn from boat hirers who have been hiring every year for the last 30 years as they can only spent 2 weeks on the canal and hiring is ceaper than owning.

I have also seen parties who were more interested in beer than listing to boring safety knowledge. and as for putting the tiller the wrong way in an emergency, well I don't think I have done that recently but then i have been steering boats with tillers for 50+ years, put me in aboat with a wheel and maybe I wold turn that the wrong way?

[IanD]

Just now, Detling said:

I have helped boater though locks as required. We once met a boat that had done 12 locks upwards but were puzzling over how to go downwards. I have also learn from boat hirers who have been hiring every year for the last 30 years as they can only spent 2 weeks on the canal and hiring is ceaper than owning.

I have also seen parties who were more interested in beer than listing to boring safety knowledge. and as for putting the tiller the wrong way in an emergency, well I don't think I have done that recently but then i have been steering boats with tillers for 50+ years, put me in aboat with a wheel and maybe I wold turn that the wrong way?

Well I'm going to find out this summer -- only 40 years though...

 

https://www.bearboating.co.uk/boats/nemonoo

 

[yes I know it's very non-trad (even without the awful pram hood!) and the first wideboat ever for me , but it is at least appropriate for the L&L...]

[Hudds Lad]

15 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

....one person for external and a different person for internal so it wasn't just one member of the group getting information overload

 

First time we hired I was a clueless newb as green as fresh mown grass, and i don't mind admitting it. I was a bit apprehensive about the whole thing and after the 30min instructional watching of the dvd in the office with all the other hirers i felt even worse, then everyone else nominated me to be walked through the boat systems and i can honestly say 90% of it went right over my head. Information overload is entirely accurate.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Well I'm going to find out this summer -- only 40 years though...

 

https://www.bearboating.co.uk/boats/nemonoo

 

[yes I know it's very non-trad (even without the awful pram hood!) and the first wideboat ever for me , but it is at least appropriate for the L&L...]

It will be better to handle than you think and hugely more comfortable than any sewer tube!!

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Detling said:

Not if you hire a holiday boat. otherwise there would be no hire industry.

 

 

 

 

I see you clipped the relevant part of my post :

 

Paradoxically, hire boat skippers (i.e the most inexperienced) need no qualifications at all (merely some very limited tuition) and this is another reason why hire boats should be treated with caution by more seasoned boaters, especially those piloting their own craft.

[Guest]

The best pre hire training we got was from Snaygill Boats at Skipton back in 2003 so I don't know if they still do this.

 

On the day we picked the boat up were given some tuition and basic handling and shown how to operate a swing bridge (Heading West).

 

They then told us to cruise up to the section just before Holme Bridge, moor for the night and ring them the next morning and somebody would come up and show us how to do the lock.

 

This we duly did and were given tuition on how to do it correctly.

 

But then The yard is quite close and it lends itself quite easily to doing this.

 

They also are (were) a relatively small hire firm with a small number of boats going out at any one time, I doubt the bigger companies could replicate this.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by The Happy Nomad
To correct date

[Sally Grim]

If you're not used to tiller steering, you automatically put the tiller the way you want to go, especially if you're already a bit flustered.  Hence the "going into the brickwork" situation, of course. It brings back memories.... The first time we hired, the intructor only wanted one of us on deck, so I duly went inside and startet to unpack, and left my husband to it. 5 minutes later I was called out. My husband simply hadn't been able to get the hang of it, so I was asked to take over. Needless to say, the next day when we were on our own and all was calm, he picked it up quite easily. 

 

When we hired (from Wyvern and Canal Cruising), we always had a thorough handover, which included the instructor accompagnying us through the first lock and showing us how to work it. Even when we were returning customers.

[Arthur Marshall]

The critical point from the original post is that nobody actually died. People made mistakes, as you always do when trying something new. It may look dreadful from the bank, but it wasn't. That's how you learn stuff, it's called experience.

Apart from the bloke in the Harecastle, there aren't a lot of hirer fatalities on the canals. It's pretty difficult to kill yourself canalling, though sinking the boat's not too hard.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I see you clipped the relevant part of my post :

 

Paradoxically, hire boat skippers (i.e the most inexperienced) need no qualifications at all (merely some very limited tuition) and this is another reason why hire boats should be treated with caution by more seasoned boaters, especially those piloting their own craft.

Your prejudices are showing, Alan -- I've come across many competent hire boaters, and also some truly incompetent and obnoxious private boaters, who see themselves as superior when they're nothing of the sort...

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The critical point from the original post is that nobody actually died. People made mistakes, as you always do when trying something new. It may look dreadful from the bank, but it wasn't. That's how you learn stuff, it's called experience.

Apart from the bloke in the Harecastle, there aren't a lot of hirer fatalities on the canals. It's pretty difficult to kill yourself canalling, though sinking the boat's not too hard.

 

Depends what you call 'a lot'

 

Off the top of my head (apart from the one you mention) I can think of the Cropedy one, the one at Alrewas and the four people who drowned on the L&L in Steg Neck lock between Newton and Gargrave when their hire boat hung up on the lock gates, slipped and fell back into the lock.

Edited May 12, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[Bee]

I'm surprised the tragedy rate isn't much higher. Boats weighing 10 - 20 tons, ancient machinery, wet slippery stuff, lots of ropes, inexperienced boaters with families and dogs and/or alcohol, what a mixture. Not sure what can be done. We recently hired a boat and could not fault the handover, the only thing that night have been mentioned was to remove windlasses in case the ratchet fails but too much info just overloads the brain. We were told - several times - that if anybody falls in, knock the engine out of gear or turn it off.  As Alan mentioned, hire boats in France are 'Sans Permis' - no permit needed. Some of those boats are big and powerful. Came across one slowly getting suspended in a lock, A quick dash with the hacksaw parted the rope, no harm done although the French crew thought they were being attacked by a crazy Englishman (dropping paddles and refilling locks is a bit different in French locks)  Maybe hire companies should send out DVD's of what just might go wrong instead of pictures of smiling, happy people sipping wine in the sunshine.

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, IanD said:

Your prejudices are showing, Alan -- I've come across many competent hire boaters, and also some truly incompetent and obnoxious private boaters, who see themselves as superior when they're nothing of the sort...

 

You maybe did not realise that the statement is not 'my prejudices', but was an extract from the French website explaing about what licenecs are required.

 

Waterway Regulations | ICC + CEVNI Qualifications | French Waterways (french-waterways.com)

 

I do not claim any ownership to the statement.

 

Although I doubt I'll get an apology, I'll accept one.

[Bee]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

Your prejudices are showing, Alan -- I've come across many competent hire boaters, and also some truly incompetent and obnoxious private boaters, who see themselves as superior when they're nothing of the sort...

The few arguments I have had when boating have been with unpleasant private boaters. Hire boaters tend to be quite nice.

[IanD]

38 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You maybe did not realise that the statement is not 'my prejudices', but was an extract from the French website explaing about what licenecs are required.

 

Waterway Regulations | ICC + CEVNI Qualifications | French Waterways (french-waterways.com)

 

I do not claim any ownership to the statement.

 

Although I doubt I'll get an apology, I'll accept one.

You were the one who pointed out that this was "the relevant part of your post which had been clipped".

 

Most reasonable people -- including me -- would take this to mean that you endorsed the view stated, otherwise why point out this and nothing else?

 

And it has to be said that you do have a pro-private-boater-anti-hire-boater track record ?

 

37 minutes ago, Bee said:

The few arguments I have had when boating have been with unpleasant private boaters. Hire boaters tend to be quite nice.

 

Me too.

Edited May 12, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

You were the one who pointed out that this was "the relevant part of your post which had been clipped".

 

Yet again you make yourself look a fool;

 

It was totally relevant to the post I was replying to where Detling had said :

 

2 hours ago, Detling said:

Not if you hire a holiday boat. otherwise there would be no hire industry.

 

and to which I pointed out that he had missed the paragraph saying that hire boaters did not need licences, 

 

 

But of course with your well known prejudices against certain boaters, you make out that I 'endorsed the view'. I have no idea how you could make that leap of fantasy.

 

Maybe you would be better in future replying to posts which were addressed to you and not to another poster.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Alan de Enfield