Buying: ironworks maker? wooden cabin? Advice needed!

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, A Mad Belgian said:

hi. There is a boat wrapped around the engine :-D: https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/narrow-boats-traditional-for-sale/663939

Boat is 1993 though, engine is 1973 so don't know the story there..

So if there's a boat around it does it sound ok? Cheers!

 

 

 

Looks a good starter boat and at a very fair price (in todays market) I sold one very similar a few years ago for £11,000.

 

Well worth a look at, if its as good as it sounds it won't be available for long.

 

Are you looking for it as a liveaboard or a leisure boat ?

 

If its going to be a liveaboard then you may need to get some work done on the water heater / gas system.

It looks to me as if the water heater is in the bathroom (toilet roll next to it ?) in which case it does not comply with the GSIUR gas regulations for a liveaboard, but is OK for a 'holiday / weekend boat' - I don't make the rules and would suggest you could dies just as easily whilst on hliday as you could living aboard.

 

 

 

 

Go and look, (quickly) and if happy get a deposit down and a surveyor booked.

make sure you know the conditions of refund of your deposit.

[Athy]

It looks a neat little craft. In addition to Alan's comment, I would say that the side decks look very narrow for walking along, and that the cooker's hob is ascloseasthis to the wooden cladding.

 

Sabb engines are well thought of and are still used in some hire boats: I believe that the owner of Union Canal Carriers is quite an expert on them, and he could probably help you with spare parts.

[A Mad Belgian]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Looks a good starter boat and at a very fair price (in todays market) I sold one very similar a few years ago for £11,000.

 

Well worth a look at, if its as good as it sounds it won't be available for long.

 

Are you looking for it as a liveaboard or a leisure boat ?

 

If its going to be a liveaboard then you may need to get some work done on the water heater / gas system.

It looks to me as if the water heater is in the bathroom (toilet roll next to it ?) in which case it does not comply with the GSIUR gas regulations for a liveaboard, but is OK for a 'holiday / weekend boat' - I don't make the rules and would suggest you could dies just as easily whilst on hliday as you could living aboard.

 

 

 

 

Go and look, (quickly) and if happy get a deposit down and a surveyor booked.

make sure you know the conditions of refund of your deposit.

Thank you for this feedback, very helpful indeed. I am looking for a liveaboard so might have to do some work indeed — would that be incredibly expensive? In any case, thank you for your feedback, I'll try to go on Thursday (but they've got viewings tomorrow already so might well miss the chance anyway... we'll see).

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

It looks a neat little craft. In addition to Alan's comment, I would say that the side decks look very narrow for walking along, and that the cooker's hob is ascloseasthis to the wooden cladding.

 

Sabb engines are well thought of and are still used in some hire boats: I believe that the owner of Union Canal Carriers is quite an expert on them, and he could probably help you with spare parts.

reckon this is a safety hazard, then? Thank you for your help -- I am new and scared of making the wrong choice for my first boat (don't need it to be perfect but would like to avoid a nightmare boat at the very least!)

[Bee]

You are actually, in my opinion, picking some good boats.' Onion Barge' probably needs a bit of a sort out and updating but that's not too much to worry about. Don't know much about Sabb engines but it will be a proper boat engine so that's a good start. Basically, if you like the boat and if it ticks most of the boxes then get a survey and unless there are corrosion horrors or some sort of expensive problems then I would think seriously about Onion thingy.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, A Mad Belgian said:

would that be incredibly expensive?

 

 

Unfortunately 'everything' that you have to pay for with boating is expensive, but its all relative.

 

BOAT = Bring Out Another Thousand

 

It should not be a big job I think that it just needs moving from the bathroom to the kitchen.

The normal place for them is in the kitchen.

 

This was my '30 footer' showing where the water heater was fitted.

 

 

[A Mad Belgian]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Unfortunately 'everything' that you have to pay for with boating is expensive, but its all relative.

 

BOAT = Bring Out Another Thousand

 

It should not be a big job I think that it just needs moving from the bathroom to the kitchen.

The normal place for them is in the kitchen.

 

This was my '30 footer' showing where the water heater was fitted.

 

 

haha yes I have heard that BOAT thing before ?

I guess by boat standards I'd consider "expensive" things that cost several thousand. "About a thousand" seems indeed the average boat job ?

[Tony Brooks]

A genuine question - don't at least some SAABs use "filter tips" for cold starting? If this one does its a bit of extra complication but I expect its as bomb proof as the air cooled Listers.

[ditchcrawler]

From a Facebook posting spares can be expensive 

[A Mad Belgian]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

You are actually, in my opinion, picking some good boats.' Onion Barge' probably needs a bit of a sort out and updating but that's not too much to worry about. Don't know much about Sabb engines but it will be a proper boat engine so that's a good start. Basically, if you like the boat and if it ticks most of the boxes then get a survey and unless there are corrosion horrors or some sort of expensive problems then I would think seriously about Onion thingy.

Thank you very much this is helpful and encouraging. I'm going to see it tomorrow! Terrifying! ?

 

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

From a Facebook posting spares can be expensive 

Ok thanks I'll bear that in mind

[Alan de Enfield]

46 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

don't at least some SAABs

 

 

Were they not part of General Motors

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Were they not part of General Motors

OK fair cop -SABBs

[cheshire~rose]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

 

It should not be a big job I think that it just needs moving from the bathroom to the kitchen.

The normal place for them is in the kitchen.

 

 

 

 

 

You cannot change the location of an open flue instant gas water heater. 

 

They are still allowed in boats if they have been fitted since before the rules changed but a replacement has to be fitted in the same place or if fitting in a different place they need to be a sealed flue model 

 

This is something a surveyor would be aware of 

[ditchcrawler]

21 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

 

You cannot change the location of an open flue instant gas water heater. 

 

They are still allowed in boats if they have been fitted since before the rules changed but a replacement has to be fitted in the same place or if fitting in a different place they need to be a sealed flue model 

 

This is something a surveyor would be aware of 

I could never quite get my head around these regulation.

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

 

You cannot change the location of an open flue instant gas water heater. 

 

They are still allowed in boats if they have been fitted since before the rules changed but a replacement has to be fitted in the same place or if fitting in a different place they need to be a sealed flue model 

 

This is something a surveyor would be aware of 

 

 

I think you will find that the Statutory GSIUR regulations will overide the BSSC when it is a livaboard (as is the intended use confirmed by the OP).

If it has been previously used as a recreational boat then its location is acceptable as the GSIUR does not apply

 

Don't blame me, I didn't write the laws.

 

Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998

Description

These regulations are a United Kingdom Statutory Instrument regulating various activities relating to the safety of installations and appliances using Natural gas and Liquefied Petroleum Gas.

 

 

An extract from the regulations :

 

Room-sealed appliances 30.—

(1) No person shall install a gas appliance in a room used or intended to be used as a bathroom or a shower room unless it is a room-sealed appliance.

 

(2) No person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of more than 14 kilowatt gross heat input in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation unless the appliance is a room-sealed appliance.

 

(3) No person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of 14 kilowatt gross heat input or less in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation and no person shall install an instantaneous water heater unless (in each case)—

(a) it is a room-sealed appliance; or

(b) it incorporates a safety control designed to shut down the appliance before there is a build up of a dangerous quantity of the products of combustion in the room concerned.

 

(4) The references in paragraphs (1) to (3) to a room used or intended to be used for the purpose therein referred to includes a reference to—

(a) a cupboard or compartment within such a room; or

(b) a cupboard, compartment or space adjacent to such a room if there is an air vent from the cupboard, compartment or space into such a room.

[Alan de Enfield]

47 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

This is something a surveyor would be aware of 

 

 

I'm sure a surveyor would also be aware of the requiments of the GSIUR as applied to livaboard boats, and it is an instruction from the BSS to all examiners to ask if the boat is used as a liveaboard and to identify if the examiner is suitably qualified to check the gas system on a boat that falls under the auspices of the GSIUR.

 

Any gas safe registered engineer would be aware of the following :

 

Extract from the Act :

 

 

 

Nothing in these Regulations shall apply in relation to the supply of gas to, or anything done in respect of a gas fitting on—

(a)a self-propelled vehicle except when such a vehicle is—

(i)hired out in the course of a business; or

(ii)made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried on from that vehicle;

(b)a sea-going ship;

(c)a vessel not requiring a national or international load line certificate except when such vessel is—

(i)hired out in the course of a business;

(ii)made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried out from that vessel; or

(iii)used primarily for domestic or residential purposes;

 

 

In which case the full legislation applies to a liveaboard boat.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Alan de Enfield]

49 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

You cannot change the location of an open flue instant gas water heater. 

 

 

Why not ?

Do you have any documentary evidence to support that statement ?

 

What is stopping you moving it from a position where by law it should not be to a position that the law allows ?

[cheshire~rose]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I think you will find that the Statutory GSIUR regulations will overide the BSSC when it is a livaboard (as is the intended use confirmed by the OP).

If it has been previously used as a recreational boat then its location is acceptable as the GSIUR does not apply

 

Don't blame me, I didn't write the laws.

 

Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998

Description

These regulations are a United Kingdom Statutory Instrument regulating various activities relating to the safety of installations and appliances using Natural gas and Liquefied Petroleum Gas.

 

 

An extract from the regulations :

 

Room-sealed appliances 30.—

(1) No person shall install a gas appliance in a room used or intended to be used as a bathroom or a shower room unless it is a room-sealed appliance.

 

(2) No person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of more than 14 kilowatt gross heat input in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation unless the appliance is a room-sealed appliance.

 

(3) No person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of 14 kilowatt gross heat input or less in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation and no person shall install an instantaneous water heater unless (in each case)—

(a) it is a room-sealed appliance; or

(b) it incorporates a safety control designed to shut down the appliance before there is a build up of a dangerous quantity of the products of combustion in the room concerned.

 

(4) The references in paragraphs (1) to (3) to a room used or intended to be used for the purpose therein referred to includes a reference to—

(a) a cupboard or compartment within such a room; or

(b) a cupboard, compartment or space adjacent to such a room if there is an air vent from the cupboard, compartment or space into such a room.

You have lost me now. 

 

I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting that the boiler was not in compliance with the rules for a live aboard boat where it is currently situated so you suggested moving it. I have no knowledge of the rules of where you can and can't site a boiler on a live aboard but I do know that it is only permissable to site an open flue instant gas water heater in a place where one has been previously fitted (for example to replace one that has failed) 

 

Any new installation is required to be a sealed flue heater. At least it was a couple of years back = perhaps I am out of step with the changes 

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Why not ?

Do you have any documentary evidence to support that statement ?

 

What is stopping you moving it from a position where by law it should not be to a position that the law allows ?

No, or at least I might have a trail of emails between myself and the surveyor who was overseeing the refit on Python but that is not really "documentary evidence" 

 

We were able to fit an open flue Morco on board because there had previously been one fitted but it had to go in the exact same location which involved fitting a new bulkhead where one had previously been removed when she was re-bottomed. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, cheshire~rose said:

I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting that the boiler was not in compliance with the rules for a live aboard boat where it is currently situated so you suggested moving it.

 

 

That is exactly what I was saying the law is, I was not suggesting it, I was stating a fact.

 

1 minute ago, cheshire~rose said:

Any new installation is required to be a sealed flue heater. At least it was a couple of years back = perhaps I am out of step with the changes 

 

The BSS have said that the use of open flue water heaters is still allowed until viable alternatives become available, they are now becoming available and I believe that the BSS is now reviewing if the concession should be removed, but, as of today, you can still install a non-room sealed water heater in either a new or secondhand boat.

 

 

3 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

but I do know that it is only permissable to site an open flue instant gas water heater in a place where one has been previously fitted (for example to replace one that has failed) 

 

Could you please provide evidence or a source for that statement please.

 

We are talking about a private leisure boat which now has a change of use by becoming residential and now different laws apply.

 

Its like starting to rent your house out, now you have to change the heating system, you have to have gas certificates, you have to have electrical safety certificates - the house had not changed but the use of it has.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

You have lost me now. 

 

I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting that the boiler was not in compliance with the rules for a live aboard boat where it is currently situated so you suggested moving it. I have no knowledge of the rules of where you can and can't site a boiler on a live aboard but I do know that it is only permissable to site an open flue instant gas water heater in a place where one has been previously fitted (for example to replace one that has failed) 

 

Any new installation is required to be a sealed flue heater. At least it was a couple of years back = perhaps I am out of step with the changes 

No, or at least I might have a trail of emails between myself and the surveyor who was overseeing the refit on Python but that is not really "documentary evidence" 

 

We were able to fit an open flue Morco on board because there had previously been one fitted but it had to go in the exact same location which involved fitting a new bulkhead where one had previously been removed when she was re-bottomed. 

 

 

 

 

 

If I remember correctly Python is your 'charity boat' used for pleasure rides by the public so would come under the GSIUR rules, which as I have said means that you cannot install a non-room sealed water heater in a bathroom.

 

The GSIUR does not apply to any boat except in these 3 cases :

 

(i)hired out in the course of a business;

(ii)made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried out from that vessel; or

(iii)used primarily for domestic or residential purposes;

 

[cheshire~rose]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

If I remember correctly Python is your 'charity boat' used for pleasure rides by the public so would come under the GSIUR rules, which as I have said means that you cannot install a non-room sealed water heater in a bathroom.

 

The GSIUR does not apply to any boat except in these 3 cases :

 

(i)hired out in the course of a business;

(ii)made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried out from that vessel; or

(iii)used primarily for domestic or residential purposes;

 

 

No you do not remember correctly 

 

Python is not "my" charity boat 

Python is not used for "pleasure rides by the public" 

 

Python is Chesterfield Canal Trust's historic WORKBOAT. She is used by volunteers to maintain the canal. 

 

The rules have probably changed. I have already told you I do not have documentary evidence so please stop asking for it. 

 

At the time we were at pains to try and comply with RCD where it was practical to do so as we felt that by doing so we were building in a greater level of safety for the users of the boat. This was even though at approaching 90 years old RCD was never going to be required. 

 

The work was overseen by two surveyors at the time, one of whom is a registered marine gas safe engineer. At the time he had a situation with a boat privately owned by one of the volunteers and he had bought a new open flue Morco and moved it to a different site from it's original fitting. He had to move it back again! 

 

Obviously my understanding of the legistaltion is out of date so ignore me but I would suggest that any query about a gas appliance of any sorts would be raised with someone qualified to answer and not from what someone has posted on social media so I will leave this discussion here. 

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

I would suggest that any query about a gas appliance of any sorts would be raised with someone qualified to answer and not from what someone has posted on social media so I will leave this discussion here. 

 

 

I entirely agree, my advice is worth precisely what the OP has paid for it - I try to support my advice with extracts from the relevant legislation so the OP can decide on which course of action he wishes to follow.

 

I'd also strongly suggest he takes professional advice from the Gas Safe Register and ask for their take on the situation regarding an open flue water heater installed in a bathroom.

 

Their number is 

Customer service: 0800 408 5500

 

The risk he takes by not checking / confirming the situation is that a qualified BSS examiner sees the heater located in an illegal position, disconnects it, seals off the gas system and condems the boat until the fault is rectified.

That is the power they have under the law.

[A Mad Belgian]

Hi again. So I went, I saw, and I put an option on the boat! Terrifying and exciting at once...

 

Any good surveyor to recommend in the Manchester area? I'm told everyone's overbooked these days but still need to arrange a survey!

[Mad Harold]

3 hours ago, A Mad Belgian said:

Hi again. So I went, I saw, and I put an option on the boat! Terrifying and exciting at once...

 

Any good surveyor to recommend in the Manchester area? I'm told everyone's overbooked these days but still need to arrange a survey!

Ricky Tropman of Chesterfield.

He surveyed my boat and I was quite satisfied with his service.

[Ianws]

You could try 
Graham Thornton  07976 721212

I know he is busy but pretty sure he could also advise on the gas safety side of things, if available to do the survey.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Ianws

[David Mack]

Mike Carter

http://www.marinesurveysltd.com/

Edited May 12, 2021 by David Mack