Best dual purpose batteries for ruin

[Benny]

So I tend to ruin batteries within two years. I have two leisure batteries,  I start my engine with them and use cheap solar chargers to charge them. I'm cool with that but I'd like to get 3 years out of them so I'm thinking higher capacity dual purpose. I'm torn between the following two options. Any thoughts?

 

https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/hankook-130ah-leisure-battery-xl31-x-2/

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110713838381?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=110713838381&targetid=1140298851333&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045594&poi=&campaignid=12125451044&mkgroupid=122515173971&rlsatarget=aud-629407027145:pla-1140298851333&abcId=9300480&merchantid=101724330&gclid=Cj0KCQjwp86EBhD7ARIsAFkgakgOhOeDTJyBCVLxFotShrKLuHrHy1NHShq7B7UYbnAJeKIiRHDaWp8aAhCDEALw_wcB

[Alan de Enfield]

Do you know why you kill your batteries ?

[Tony Brooks]

20 minutes ago, Benny said:

So I tend to ruin batteries within two years. I have two leisure batteries,  I start my engine with them and use cheap solar chargers to charge them. I'm cool with that but I'd like to get 3 years out of them so I'm thinking higher capacity dual purpose. I'm torn between the following two options. Any thoughts?

 

https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/hankook-130ah-leisure-battery-xl31-x-2/

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110713838381?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=110713838381&targetid=1140298851333&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045594&poi=&campaignid=12125451044&mkgroupid=122515173971&rlsatarget=aud-629407027145:pla-1140298851333&abcId=9300480&merchantid=101724330&gclid=Cj0KCQjwp86EBhD7ARIsAFkgakgOhOeDTJyBCVLxFotShrKLuHrHy1NHShq7B7UYbnAJeKIiRHDaWp8aAhCDEALw_wcB

 

Based on the limited information then yes, almost certainly over discharging and under charging, especially in winter.

 

Over discharging uses up cyclic life so you get internal shorts while under charging causes loss of capacity because of sulphation.

 

On no account rely on any sort of state of charge meter on a solar controller. Its fine to use the battery voltage reading when rested and off load to assess state of charge.

 

A larger capacity will not help and paying more for a possibly higher cyclic life will do you no good unless you can get your batteries 80% fully charged every day and all but 100% charged once a week.

 

So buy cheap duel purpose batteries and use the money you save to address battery monitoring and getting them fully charged.

[Benny]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Do you know why you kill your batteries ?

 

Well I can't really charge them fully in winter. The engine is noisy and smelly and don't usually like having it on more than an hour. I don't know what the solution is, short of getting a new engine which I can't afford.

[Tony Brooks]

The solution is to accept the short life, do your best and buy cheaper open cell batteries.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Benny said:

 

Well I can't really charge them fully in winter. The engine is noisy and smelly and don't usually like having it on more than an hour. I don't know what the solution is, short of getting a new engine which I can't afford.

 

Well unless you improve your charging regime all you are going to do is kill more expensive batteries.

 

The solution is to conduct a power audit and once you know how much you use you can plan your recharge capability to cover it.

You probably (typically) need to run your engine 3 or 4 hours per day and 6-8 hours each day on a weekend.

 

Other options :

Take a mooring with a shore line electric supply

Buy a generator

 

In the shorterm it may be cheaper to scarap your batteries every couple of years, but longer term having the correct recharging systems will save you money.

 

 

 

Option 4 :

 

 

 

[Benny]

Haha option 4 looks good, although I'm not sure my partner would agree. Could probably do with getting fitter myself. . .

 

Yeah there's no chance I want to spend 4 hours of every day with the engine on, and even less chance I'll end up in a marina. I have a generator so I could probably tolerate that for a couple hours a day in the winter but that won't charge at the rate the alternator, would it?

 

I guess I'll have to keep buying cheap batteries, hopefully one day we will upgrade - boat wise - to something with a more sufferable engine.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Benny said:

Haha option 4 looks good, although I'm not sure my partner would agree. Could probably do with getting fitter myself. . .

 

Yeah there's no chance I want to spend 4 hours of every day with the engine on, and even less chance I'll end up in a marina. I have a generator so I could probably tolerate that for a couple hours a day in the winter but that won't charge at the rate the alternator, would it?

 

I guess I'll have to keep buying cheap batteries, hopefully one day we will upgrade - boat wise - to something with a more sufferable engine.

 

You need a battery charger as well as a generator and  if you get one that boosts the acceptance voltage to (say) 14.6V it may do better than an alternator, but then a charger is likely to drop to float well before the batteries are charged. It also depenfds upon the size of charger your alternator can power.

[Ronaldo47]

The lead sulphate that is produced during discharge can be readily converted back to spongy lead and lead oxide if recharging is carried out promptly. If not, the amorphous lead sulphate becomes progressively converted to a hard crystalline form that is very difficult to convert back as it is essentially non-conductive, and the longer it it left, the worse it becomes.  Batteries are available that can cope with being left in a discharged state (Nickle Iron and Nickel Cadmium for example)  but they are not cheap, are normally more bulky than a lead acid battery of the same Ah capacity, and their cost means it would probably be more economical to buy new ordinary batteries every few years. In the mid 1980's I did investigate getting a NiCd battery for our motor home, but found that one with the same Ah capacity as the existing lead one cost ten times as much, so not a viable option. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Benny]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

You need a battery charger as well as a generator and  if you get one that boosts the acceptance voltage to (say) 14.6V it may do better than an alternator, but then a charger is likely to drop to float well before the batteries are charged. It also depenfds upon the size of charger your alternator can power.

 

I have a battery charger but unless I put it on engine start mode (which you're not supposed to leave it on) then it doesn't come close to alternator. I would probably invest in a new one if it helped the situation. My genny is 1.6kw I think.

16 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

The lead sulphate that is produced during discharge can be readily converted back to spongy lead and lead oxide if recharging is carried out promptly. If not, the amorphous lead sulphate becomes progressively converted to a hard crystalline form that is very difficult to convert back as it is essentially non-conductive, and the longer it it left, the worse it becomes.  Batteries are available that can cope with being left in a discharged state (Nickle Iron and Nickel Cadmium for example)  but they are not cheap, are normally more bulky than a lead acid battery of the same Ah capacity, and their cost means it would probably be more economical to buy new ordinary batteries every few years. In the mid 1980's I did investigate getting a NiCd battery for our motor home, but found that one with the same Ah capacity as the existing lead one cost ten times as much, so not a viable option. 

 

Yeah I've explored different battery types but they'd need to last 10 times longer and I can't see that happening. Also, they'd need to not get stolen or damaged. Would be nice if we had better options in the market for those of us who want all the power without any of the work.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Benny said:

Would be nice if we had better options in the market for those of us who want all the power without any of the work.

 

You could always join the other K&A boaters and go 'pedal power' boat, Saves using the batteries to start the engine.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[dmr]

If you are full time liveaboard then 2 years is good, and as you say you are not fully recharging often then 2 years is really good. Just carry on as you are and replace them every two years, and get the cheapest you can find. Have you got room for any more? A separate engine starter battery is a very good idea and will last for many years.

 

Most low cost batteries are rated for only about 300 cycles so getting 3 years is going to be difficult.

You could run the engine more, or get a little genny, but would likely still only get two years out of the batteries so just carry on as you are.

 

.............Dave

[blackrose]

16 minutes ago, Benny said:

 

I have a battery charger but unless I put it on engine start mode (which you're not supposed to leave it on) then it doesn't come close to alternator. I would probably invest in a new one if it helped the situation. My genny is 1.6kw I think.

 

 

Get yourself a proper 3 stage battery charger.

 

My alternators are both supposed to be 70amp which is already low output. But I've never seen more than 44 amps on my battery monitor from the one that charges the domestic bank and that's with an external battery regulator. Without it the output is even less.

 

In contrast, with my 70amp battery charger I get a maximum of the full 70 amps

Edited May 6, 2021 by blackrose

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Benny said:

 

I have a battery charger but unless I put it on engine start mode (which you're not supposed to leave it on) then it doesn't come close to alternator. I would probably invest in a new one if it helped the situation. My genny is 1.6kw I think.

 

Yeah I've explored different battery types but they'd need to last 10 times longer and I can't see that happening. Also, they'd need to not get stolen or damaged. Would be nice if we had better options in the market for those of us who want all the power without any of the work.

 

There is but you have rejected it. It's called a shoreline and charger. Lithium batteries will accept the highest charge you can throw at them and don't suffer sulphation and have far, far longer cyclic lives but you need close control of the charging and they are not a cheap option. I think a 200 Ah proprietary system start at £1000

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

If you are full time liveaboard then 2 years is good, and as you say you are not fully recharging often then 2 years is really good. Just carry on as you are and replace them every two years, and get the cheapest you can find. Have you got room for any more? A separate engine starter battery is a very good idea and will last for many years.

 

Most low cost batteries are rated for only about 300 cycles so getting 3 years is going to be difficult.

You could run the engine more, or get a little genny, but would likely still only get two years out of the batteries so just carry on as you are.

 

.............Dave

 

I have been trying to prod him in that direction but he seems to think he can do better.

[Benny]

@Alan de Enfield Pedal power is a great idea! I saw someone using a pole to move a dutch barge after selling his engine - actually looked quite liberating.

 

@blackrose 70 amps is impressive. Can I get that off a 1.6kw genny? What battery charger do you have? I think this is my best option for the winter.

 

@dmr@Tony Brooks I'm ok with 2 years if that's the case. It is after all going to be a lot more expensive to pay for a mooring for the few extra watts of power a day we need. As I said, maybe I'll get a better charger for genny and improve things that way.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Benny said:

70 amps is impressive. Can I get that off a 1.6kw genny?

 

Yes

[Alan de Enfield]

 

You need a good quality charger with a high power factor (Pf) up inthe 0.9s, a cheap charger can have a Pf as low as 0.6.

 

With a cheap charger you can be 'losing' 40% of your power. (so you need a 40% bigger generator to get the same charge) 

 

But remember that having a 70 amp charger does not mean that you charge at 70 amps and will put 70 amps back in your batteries in one hour.

 

As the batteries become charged they tell the charger not to push in so many amps, as they become more charged they tell it to reduce the amount even more until you are getting maybe only 2 or 3 amps for the last couple of hours.

 

As a rough guide you are lucky if you actually achieve 30% of the charger rating over the period of charging.

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, Benny said:

 

Well I can't really charge them fully in winter. The engine is noisy and smelly and don't usually like having it on more than an hour. I don't know what the solution is, short of getting a new engine which I can't afford.

Edit:  this has already been covered.

Edited May 6, 2021 by doratheexplorer

[Benny]

55 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You need a good quality charger with a high power factor (Pf) up inthe 0.9s, a cheap charger can have a Pf as low as 0.6.

 

With a cheap charger you can be 'losing' 40% of your power. (so you need a 40% bigger generator to get the same charge) 

 

But remember that having a 70 amp charger does not mean that you charge at 70 amps and will put 70 amps back in your batteries in one hour.

 

As the batteries become charged they tell the charger not to push in so many amps, as they become more charged they tell it to reduce the amount even more until you are getting maybe only 2 or 3 amps for the last couple of hours.

 

As a rough guide you are lucky if you actually achieve 30% of the charger rating over the period of charging.

 

Thanks for the info. I guess the key thing is that I don't mind having the generator on quite so much as the engine, so if I can get as good a charge, or better charge from the generator, then that could solve a few of my winter blues.

 

It would be nice to quiten the generator down a bit though, I always feel dead guilty putting it on when someone is moored nearby - more so with the engine.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

51 minutes ago, Benny said:

 

Thanks for the info. I guess the key thing is that I don't mind having the generator on quite so much as the engine, so if I can get as good a charge, or better charge from the generator, then that could solve a few of my winter blues.

 

It would be nice to quiten the generator down a bit though, I always feel dead guilty putting it on when someone is moored nearby - more so with the engine.

 

 

What sort / make / model of Jenny is it ?

[Benny]

30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What sort / make / model of Jenny is it ?

 

Actually it's only 1.2kw.

 

https://nassboards.co.uk/product/4-stroke-4hp-1200w-instant-power-portable-inverter-generator/

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Benny said:

 

Actually it's only 1.2kw.

 

https://nassboards.co.uk/product/4-stroke-4hp-1200w-instant-power-portable-inverter-generator/

 

That is actually 1200w PEAK, for continuous use it is only 1kw (1000w)

 

It should run a quality 60 amp charger, or a cheapy 50 amp

 

NEVER run a generator onboard the CO can kill you.

Take it off the boat and only run it on the bank downwind of the boat.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Tom and Bex]

31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That is actually 1200w PEAK, for continuous use it is only 1kw (1000w)

 

It should run a quality 60 amp charger, or a cheapy 50 amp

Theory is a wonderful thing! Our 1kw generator would not run our pervious 40A charger at all. Will run our current (Sterling) charger, but only if charger started in low power and increased when running, will trip the generator if started at full power. 

 

As said above, the answer to your problems is lithium.... Doesn't fit your budget though. 

 

Otherwise just keep doing what you're doing and get the cheapest you can.

 

Like you, can't stand hours of engine or generator running. Before we fitted lithiums, we'd kill a set of cheapo lead acid batteries in 1-2 years, and that's with 500w solar. Still better than constant engine or generator noise though. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Tom and Bex

[Benny]

5 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

Theory is a wonderful thing! Our 1kw generator would not run our pervious 40A charger at all. Will run our current (Sterling) charger, but only if charger started in low power and increased when running, will trip the generator if started at full power. 

 

As said above, the answer to your problems is lithium.... Doesn't fit your budget though. 

 

Otherwise just keep doing what you're doing and get the cheapest you can.

 

Like you, can't stand hours of engine or generator running. Before we fitted lithiums, we'd kill a set of cheapo lead acid batteries in 1-2 years, and that's with 500w solar. Still better than constant engine or generator noise though. 

 

Interesting thanks. How long do your lithiums last? Do they receive more charge off the panels in winter?

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Benny