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Pitting on 30 year old boat - how much is too much? (opinions on recent survey welcome)


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Hi everyone, apologies in advance for length!

 

I just had a survey completed for a boat I like. It's a 1992, 57ft narrowboat with 10/6/5 steel. The surveyor (who is great), noted a few issues:

Pitting:
1. "the craft has suffered from corrosive pitting and is considered widespread across the hull sides between the hairpin and shoulder on each side. This should be monitored at future dockings to ensure doublers are applied if corrosive losses continue any further. The median pit depth was 1.0mm with some pitting noted up to 2.0mm. This is aged corrosion and must be assessed at further dockings. This corrosion is not thought to be active."

Worn chine:
"The base UTM median readings ranged from 8.4mm to 9.8mm. The sacrificial wear edge (Chine) has notably worn on each parallel side, with more advanced erosion to the starboard side. The chine measured from 9.0mm to 15mm."

 

Thinner steel at stern end:
"It is widely accepted that remedial steelworks are required where plate thickness is reduced to less than 4.0mm. In this case the hull exceeds this threshold at this time but as stated-the lower shell on each swim has worn more than the rest of the side shell. This is most likely as a result of internal corrosion from prolonged periods of water in the aft cabin bilge / engine compartment."

 

On the starboard side the readings are majority 5.7-5.9mm, but there are a couple of spots near the stern where it goes down to 4.7, 4.8, 4.4, and one spot where it read 4.2mm.

 

Other than that, there were a number of other more minor flags for remedial work (engine bay needs cleaning, gas locker needs cleaning and rust treating, new packing around stove flue, new top rudder bearing etc). The fitout of the boat has been done by the owner and is of an average finish, and I would expect to renovate much of the interior eventually. But other than that the boat is immediately liveable, the engine is fine, it seems dry and not leaking, plumbing/gas/electrics are fine, exterior paint condition is decent.

 

My question is, on a 30 year old boat, is this level of pitting a concern? Is this something that can or should be remedied, or is it ok to maintain the boat at a level which prevents further corrosion? I wouldn't be living in a marina, but cc. The surveyor did tell me it wouldn't be worth welding the pits as they're too numerous. Also he said the chine would need to have a new shoe welded on eventually, and the thinning at the stern end could eventually become a problem.

 

I would ask for a reduction in the asking price, but not sure if I should walk away entirely? I'm weighing up a few factors: I'm needing somewhere to live very soon, would plan to liveaboard for 2-3 years minimum, but am conscious that eventually I would want to sell and wouldn't want to lose a ton at the next sale. I am also aware that the market is crazy and competition is fierce, and additionally every month that I'm paying rent in London while I look for the 'perfect' boat is another £1000 to a landlord. So just walking away isn't necessarily the easy decision.

Not sure I can really afford to have multiple boats surveyed when every one within my price bracket (around £35-37k) is likely to have some issues! Just trying to work out which "issues" are par for the course, and which are deal breakers. Help!
 

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Try to get enough off to get the bost Zingered and 2 packed...(circa £5k). This will effectively freeze the hull condition for 10 years.

Its probably about normal fir a boat that age with normal blacking regime.

In today's market at that budget, theres not a lot of choice.

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That is not bad for a 30 year old boat.

 

As a start you are looking at getting the worst pits welded up. The 4.8 and less ones. The rest of the hull is fine.

 

The chine angle is also  fine until the next docking at least so no worries yet, and is neither difficult nor mega expensive to fix (outside London).

 

The rest of the boat wants grit  blasting and an epoxy two pack.  Zinga as well would be a bit Rolls Royce and is only really of benefit if the epoxy coating is damaged.  That will stop any further problems for at least 10 years, longer if you are not intending to do a lot of boating and just be a London liveaboard.

 

Try to get the cost of welding and a grit blast/two pack off the price.

 

N

 

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7 minutes ago, BEngo said:

That is not bad for a 30 year old boat.

 

As a start you are looking at getting the worst pits welded up. The 4.8 and less ones. The rest of the hull is fine.

 

The chine angle is also  fine until the next docking at least so no worries yet, and is neither difficult nor mega expensive to fix (outside London).

 

The rest of the boat wants grit  blasting and an epoxy two pack.  Zinga as well would be a bit Rolls Royce and is only really of benefit if the epoxy coating is damaged.  That will stop any further problems for at least 10 years, longer if you are not intending to do a lot of boating and just be a London liveaboard.

 

Try to get the cost of welding and a grit blast/two pack off the price.

 

N

 

Thank you for the advice. You wouldn't happen to know a ballpark figure of how much this costs?

31 minutes ago, matty40s said:

In today's market at that budget, theres not a lot of choice.

Yuppp

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2 minutes ago, thingsweregood said:

Whewww, £5250 for a 57ft boat going by the P&S calculations.

 

There is another option.

 

Do nothing.

The boat will not sink until the thickness in the worst place gets to 0.0mm, but at 4mm and below you will not get fully comp insurance, but you can get 3rd party insurance**, so if the worse happens (fire, theft, sinking) then you lose your boat and lose your money.

If it does get worse in the next few years then you will struggle to sell unless you are prepared to accept a low offer that allows the new buyer to cover the cost of replating, so better you make the current owner 'take the hit' and get the boat repaired so you are able to sell it in a few years.

 

** 3rd part insurance is sufficient to allow you to get your licence from C&RT

 

 

The problem with buying boats at the lower end of the market, is, as you say, they will have issues and you will need to have a number of surveys which does eat into your capital.

£35k has been a 'middle' of the market price for some years but things change, and now buying at that price, means you need to accumulate a 'fighting fund' of several £1000s to put things right.

 

Have you considered a GRP boat rather than a steel boat, you will get an excellent boat with no issues for £30k (maybe much less) and being in London can get a much more comfortable wider boat than a narrow boat designed for the narrow canals.

GRP boats can be more expensive to heat but the purchase price is as low as 50% of an equivalent narrow steel boat which gives you spare money to spend a bit extra on diesel to keep the boat warm in the winter.

 

Once you have had a wide (fat) boat and the additional space and comfort that gives, you would never return to an anorexic steel tube. unless you decide to take up boating on the canals.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There is another option.

 

Do nothing.

The boat will not sink until the thickness in the worst place gets to 0.0mm, but at 4mm and below you will not get fully comp insurance, but you can get 3rd party insurance**, so if the worse happens (fire, theft, sinking) then you lose your boat and lose your money.

If it does get worse in the next few years then you will struggle to sell unless you are prepared to accept a low offer that allows the new buyer to cover the cost of replating, so better you make the current owner 'take the hit' and get the boat repaired so you are able to sell it in a few years.

 

** 3rd part insurance is sufficient to allow you to get your licence from C&RT

 

 

The problem with buying boats at the lower end of the market, is, as you say, they will have issues and you will need to have a number of surveys which does eat into your capital.

£35k has been a 'middle' of the market price for some years but things change, and now buying at that price, means you need to accumulate a 'fighting fund' of several £1000s to put things right.

 

Have you considered a GRP boat rather than a steel boat, you will get an excellent boat with no issues for £30k (maybe much less) and being in London can get a much more comfortable wider boat than a narrow boat designed for the narrow canals.

GRP boats can be more expensive to heat but the purchase price is as low as 50% of an equivalent narrow steel boat which gives you spare money to spend a bit extra on diesel to keep the boat warm in the winter.

 

Once you have had a wide (fat) boat and the additional space and comfort that gives, you would never return to an anorexic steel tube. unless you decide to take up boating on the canals.

 

Unfortunately I think I have my heart set on a narrowboat, but I appreciate the suggestion! This one I've surveyed is quite open plan so definitely doesn't feel as claustrophibic as some of the other NBs I've seen.

 

I am assuming that with overplating, the cost might be a bit less than the grit blast/expoxy route (if just doing the section by the stern), but this would reduce the overall value of the boat? People seem to really hate overplated boats.

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I'd try to find somewhere you can get it grit blasted and do the two-pack epoxying yourself. I had my widebeam gritblasted in 2015 - hull sides up to the top rubbing strake + uxters, swims and the upswept portion of the baseplate at the bow (but not the rest of the baseplate), for £350. I put on 4 coats of Jotamastic 87 - I think that was 8 cans at about £50 a can + the dry dock fees of £400. Well worth it.

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23 minutes ago, thingsweregood said:

I am assuming that with overplating, the cost might be a bit less than the grit blast/expoxy route (if just doing the section by the stern), but this would reduce the overall value of the boat? People seem to really hate overplated boats.

 

People hate overplated boats because there are cowboys doing the work, and when buying a boat you have no idea how the work has been done, is it just a 'bodge' to get the boat saleable and there is water between the two plates ? has it been done properly and will extend the life of the boat by another 30+ years ?

 

If the work is done properly and monitored and signed off by a surveyor then it will increase the value of the boat and make it more saleable..

 

An article on the correct application of replating :

 

It is common practice when in the field surveying steel vessels to find mild steel plates welded to the hull, a practice regularly carried out on leisure vessels as a permanent repair. If any defects are found on the shell of a metal boat during a survey, surveyors are all too quick to recommend that the area concerned be overplated. Marine surveyors who deal with steel vessels will find that very often – Dutch barges and canal boats in particular – are frequently heavily overplated and should remember at all times that such overplating does NOT constitute a repair. It merely hides the defect.

 

and 

 

5. The double plating is usually not secured to the primary supporting structure – the shell side framing. It is also rarely fitted with centre plate plug welds and is dependent only on the edge weld for security.
6. The double plating is secured only at its edges and the greater the area of plate, the smaller the length of the attachment weld per unit area and, therefore, the greater the stresses in those welds.
7. The corrosion or pitting, being the reason for fitting the doubling plates, means the corrosion or pitting will still remain there and, if it is on the inside of the original shell plate, will still be increasing. Doubling, therefore, is merely hiding the problem, not repairing it.

 

 

 

Either walk away, get it overplated / replated properly, or, get it blasted, zingered and epoxied. It will cost money, but it will cost you more if you buy it and don't take preventative action.

 

Dangers of overplating.docx

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'd try to find somewhere you can get it grit blasted and do the two-pack epoxying yourself. I had my widebeam gritblasted in 2015 - hull sides up to the top rubbing strake + uxters, swims and the upswept portion of the baseplate at the bow (but not the rest of the baseplate), for £350. I put on 4 coats of Jotamastic 87 - I think that was 8 cans at about £50 a can + the dry dock fees of £400. Well worth it.

Which dry dock did you do this? I'm currently emailing a bunch of dry docks to get quotes for both them grit blasting/applying 2 pack, and costs if they just do the grit blasting and I apply epoxy myself.

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45 minutes ago, thingsweregood said:

Whewww, £5250 for a 57ft boat going by the P&S calculations.

London prices, their labour rates are £50/hr (My local yard in expensive Belgium charge only 35 euros) as Blackrose says there are cheaper options but blasting and expoxy preferably in a covered dock are the only long term solutions. Providing your insurers are happy no need to do it immediately but sooner would be better

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36 minutes ago, thingsweregood said:

Whewww, £5250 for a 57ft boat going by the P&S calculations.

 

Welcome to the world of boating :)  But remember that you offset this cost by the fact you don't need to repeatedly pull the boat out every few years for washing / wire brushing / blacking, so it's not quite as bad as it first looks. Plus as others have said you can shop around.

 

 

 

 

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Just now, gatekrash said:

 

 

Welcome to the world of boating :)  But remember that you offset this cost by the fact you don't need to repeatedly pull the boat out every few years for washing / wire brushing / blacking, so it's not quite as bad as it first looks. Plus as others have said you can shop around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But you still need to lift it out to replace anodes (unless you go for bolt on anodes, which many NB's are now doing), and to touch up the paint scratches.

You dont save any money on lift outs, just on the cost of blacking.

 

There are arguments on cost grounds against 2-packing, do you spend £5000 every 10 years, or £1000 every 2-3 years ?

If you hull is a bit thin then 2-pack should give you better protection, but once scratched the corrosion still get in to the steel.

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Bearing in mind that the area needing most attention is at the stern end so any remedial work is less involved as the interior is not fitted out, there is someone called Paul Barber that carries out replating (cutting out and replacing the affected metal), which may be an affordable option - why not talk to him or a similar specialist? In the end, if you rent for another 5-6 months you will have spent the cost of repairs..

 Good luck with the purchase, and going by the questions you have asked i doubt you'll have too much trouble and the boat sounds to be in good condition for the age. 

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3 minutes ago, BWM said:

Bearing in mind that the area needing most attention is at the stern end so any remedial work is less involved as the interior is not fitted out, there is someone called Paul Barber that carries out replating (cutting out and replacing the affected metal), which may be an affordable option - why not talk to him or a similar specialist? In the end, if you rent for another 5-6 months you will have spent the cost of repairs..

 Good luck with the purchase, and going by the questions you have asked i doubt you'll have too much trouble and the boat sounds to be in good condition for the age. 

This is the constant battle! Spending another few months looking for a different boat, getting another 1-2 surveys done.... at the end I still have a similar aged boat (due to my budget), with probably slightly different but similar problems, and I would have spent £££ on rent in the meantime! It's all money, whichever way you look at it.

Thanks for the tip on Paul Barber, I'll look him up.

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What Matty says, he knows about boats.

 

Its just not that bad for an older boat and no welding is needed yet but a bit might possibly be wise.

Shot blast and epoxy will stop things getting any worse, Sort out as much of the inside as you can get easy access to, especially the very back, as this will stop the "inside out" corrosion.

After shot blasting have a really good look and get any deep pits welded. Only do overplating if it is actually needed.

Think very carefully before doing the epoxy yourself, it might be a false economy.

 

.............Dave

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37 minutes ago, dmr said:

What Matty says, he knows about boats.

 

Its just not that bad for an older boat and no welding is needed yet but a bit might possibly be wise.

Shot blast and epoxy will stop things getting any worse, Sort out as much of the inside as you can get easy access to, especially the very back, as this will stop the "inside out" corrosion.

After shot blasting have a really good look and get any deep pits welded. Only do overplating if it is actually needed.

Think very carefully before doing the epoxy yourself, it might be a false economy.

 

.............Dave

Thanks Dave, yeah I'm calling around a few places and even if there are places that allow you to apply DIY it might not really save that much ££ overall.
 

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2 hours ago, matty40s said:

Try to get enough off to get the bost Zingered and 2 packed...(circa £5k). This will effectively freeze the hull condition for 10 years.

Its probably about normal fir a boat that age with normal blacking regime.

In today's market at that budget, theres not a lot of choice.

That would be very nice, but I think it would be more realistic to ask for £2500  discount, citing hull condition plus the cost of his own survey. I am assuming, that would be a handshake and a transfer of cash, pdq.

If the boat seemed reasonable value to OP at , say £35K, I just don't think the seller is going to drop to £30K.

Depends how much work the buyer wants to put in to the boat: If he books in to a boatyard with facilities he can probably get the worse pitting welded, and any other essential work. A good welder will have more knowledge than a good surveyor, just sayin' Maybe grit blasted,or get yard to use their power tools for a few days,  and do the rest himself, which would be neither quick nor cheap, but cheaper and quicker than finding a slot with a reputable zingerer (sp).

The boat should, hopefully be good for five years, by which time he will have 

1 Sold boat, moved back to London flat

2 Still be trying to modernise the interior to his own requirements

3 Decided to find a job outside London,

4 Sell boat, use deposit to buy something that he can buy over the next 35 years.

 

 

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55 minutes ago, thingsweregood said:

Thanks Dave, yeah I'm calling around a few places and even if there are places that allow you to apply DIY it might not really save that much ££ overall.
 

 

The yard will be all set up for putting the epoxy on and might even have a lower paid less skilled worker to do it. If you DIY you will need to supply your brushes, paint kettles and maybe a power stirrer etc etc. You might need to get a friend in to help and need to feed and beer them as a reward.  You are also getting them to do half the job (shot blast) and you doing the other half which can lead to "misunderstandings".

 

However its good if you can be present during the work to keep an eye on things.

 

Find a proper coverred dry dock, some yards work outdoors and say that the surface tolerant epoxy primers are ok with a bit of rain, but I reckon that is very much a second best approach.

 

...............Dave

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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

If the boat seemed reasonable value to OP at , say £35K, I just don't think the seller is going to drop to £30K.

 

Presumably he thought it was probably worth £35k before having a survey and seeing it needed £5k (?) spending on it to bring the value back up to a £35k boat.

 

If the OP is working to a tight budget (as it appears he is, as he seems not to want to have more surveys done) then not only has he got to find the £1000 (?) for his licence but an additional £2500 after he has negotiated £2500 off the boat price but still needs to spend £5k

 

Will it be a £37.5k boat when it is done ?

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4 hours ago, thingsweregood said:

This is the constant battle! Spending another few months looking for a different boat, getting another 1-2 surveys done.... at the end I still have a similar aged boat (due to my budget), with probably slightly different but similar problems, and I would have spent £££ on rent in the meantime! It's all money, whichever way you look at it.

Thanks for the tip on Paul Barber, I'll look him up.

https://www.facebook.com/PjBarberBoatbuilderLtd/

 

He does lots of newer narrow boats along with historic craft, and may be able to advise of another yard if travelling to them isn't practical for you. Where is the boat now? 

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1 minute ago, BWM said:

https://www.facebook.com/PjBarberBoatbuilderLtd/

 

He does lots of newer narrow boats along with historic craft, and may be able to advise of another yard if travelling to them isn't practical for you. Where is the boat now? 

I had a chat with him, he was really lovely but yes, up in Nottingham. Boat is gloucester, but I'd be ideally living around the London area most of the time. There's a yard in Bradford on Avon which has ok pricing for grit/epoxy, but nightmare to get there on the Severn/estuary through Bristol, or 2 weeks trip one way from London. Gah!

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3 hours ago, dmr said:

 

The yard will be all set up for putting the epoxy on and might even have a lower paid less skilled worker to do it. If you DIY you will need to supply your brushes, paint kettles and maybe a power stirrer etc etc. You might need to get a friend in to help and need to feed and beer them as a reward.  You are also getting them to do half the job (shot blast) and you doing the other half which can lead to "misunderstandings".

 

However its good if you can be present during the work to keep an eye on things.

 

Find a proper coverred dry dock, some yards work outdoors and say that the surface tolerant epoxy primers are ok with a bit of rain, but I reckon that is very much a second best approach.

 

...............Dave

It is important to get the primer on quick if shotblasting I note that the p and S Marine price for blasting only includes the 1st coat of primer leaving you to do the rest which is less critical, though I suspect that arrangement may indicate they do it outside which isn't optimal

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I would be pretty happy with that sort of corrosion.  What, though, is a 'hairpin??? Last time I went to London I was looking at HMS Belfast and wondering when that great lump of a thing was docked? It seems that narrowboats that sit in fresh water corrode faster than any other steel ship that floats in salt water. Its a puzzle.

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