Gas & water pipe removal question

[Sir Percy]

Hi, 

 

Similar to my previous question regarding a skin fitting, I'm now working on the other side, where there are gas and water pipes running underneath the gunwale.

 

I'll have to remove these to carry on fitting insulation and boarding over, but I'm in a quandary as to the best way to do that, and leave something that a gas fitter / plumber can work with subsequently. The pipes would be very close to where the boards will be, leaving no clearance to e.g., safely work with a blowtorch.

 

What's the best way forward? Cut off and bend/fit elbow, or something like that?

 

Thanks 

[ditchcrawler]

If you are bringing the surface forward I would run another batten along there to clip the pipe to unless the skin is going to be OK to fix to, drill another hole through the bulkhead so the pipe will come through at surface level. The gas fitter wont use a blowlamp and you should have the minimum number of fittings so probably wont want to join the pipe but run in one piece end to end. The water pipe could also be run in one length of Hep2 O.

[Sir Percy]

17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If you are bringing the surface forward I would run another batten along there to clip the pipe to unless the skin is going to be OK to fix to,

 

Yes, that's what I plan to do; fit more short lengths of batten to the steel angle where it cants inward - boards will be mounted to the battens. Would fix new pipe to those boards.

 

23 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

drill another hole through the bulkhead so the pipe will come through at surface level. 

 

Yes, you're right - I think I was too hung up on preserving as much of use as possible. 

 

25 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The gas fitter wont use a blowlamp and you should have the minimum number of fittings so probably wont want to join the pipe but run in one piece end to end. 

 

Right, understood. That's an important point that I wasn't aware of.

 

Many thanks!

[Tony Brooks]

Well, if the fitter is  marine and LPG endorsed he won't solder but if he is not or he's a clot he might so when the time comes keep an eye on him.

[Tracy D'arth]

There must not be a joint in the gas pipe anywhere that is inaccessible. Compression fittings only on gas. Copper olives only.

Replace water pipe with plastic pipe and fittings.

 

[Chewbacka]

33 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

There must not be a joint in the gas pipe anywhere that is inaccessible. Compression fittings only on gas. Copper olives only.

Replace water pipe with plastic pipe and fittings.

 

You can have inaccessible joints, but they must be visible for inspection, so the bss examiner can confirm they are compression and not solder.  Though having an inaccessible joint is bad practice.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

38 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

You can have inaccessible joints, but they must be visible for inspection

<pedant> So an inaccessible joint that is accessible then!</pedant>

[blackrose]

17 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

<pedant> So an inaccessible joint that is accessible then!</pedant>

 

Just what I was thinking...

[Higgs]

But I think we all knew what the intended meaning was. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

<pedant> So an inaccessible joint that is accessible then!</pedant>

 

It could be inaccessible, as in , unable to get your hand in to tighten / replace etc, but could be visible by using a mirror, or have a 1/2" spy-hole.

 

However, the BSS does say 'accessible', but why do they need access when all they are doing is viewing to ensure that solder joints are not used ?

 

 

7.8.3 Are all LPG pipe joints accessible for inspection and of the correct type? R

Check the accessibility and type of all pipe joints.

All LPG pipe joints must be accessible for inspection.

All LPG pipe joints must be compression fittings on copper pipework or compression or screwed fittings on copper alloy or stainlesssteel pipework

[Jen-in-Wellies]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It could be inaccessible, as in , unable to get your hand in to tighten / replace etc, but could be visible by using a mirror, or have a 1/2" spy-hole.

 

However, the BSS does say 'accessible', but why do they need access when all they are doing is viewing to ensure that solder joints are not used ?

 

 

7.8.3 Are all LPG pipe joints accessible for inspection and of the correct type? R

Check the accessibility and type of all pipe joints.

All LPG pipe joints must be accessible for inspection.

All LPG pipe joints must be compression fittings on copper pipework or compression or screwed fittings on copper alloy or stainlesssteel pipework

A chance for more pedantry! In the Glossary of Terms, the BSS requirements define "Accessible for inspection" as "Made available for inspection and capable of being seen and reached." No mention of being able to tighten, or replace. Reached precludes a mirror, or small spy hole.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Jen-in-Wellies

[blackrose]

Common sense tells me that accessible in this context means not only visible for inspection but accessible in terms of ability to be reached and tightened or dismantled and replaced. What would be the point of visible but inaccessible if a leak is found but can't be rectified?

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

However, the BSS does say 'accessible', but why do they need access when all they are doing is viewing to ensure that solder joints are not used ?

 

Surely if a leak is found there would need to be sufficient access to apply leak detection fluid to each joint. Of course if the joint is then found to be leaking more extensive dismantling may be required to gain sufficient access to fix it. All the more reason to provide ready access in the first place!

[Ex Brummie]

4 hours ago, blackrose said:

Common sense tells me that accessible in this context means not only visible for inspection but accessible in terms of ability to be reached and tightened or dismantled and replaced. What would be the point of visible but inaccessible if a leak is found but can't be rectified?

The use of a bulkhead fitting on a gas pipe is an instance where you may have an 'inaccesible' joint that is visible for inspection. Most leak detector sprays will have a pipe that enables it to be directed at such a joint. Of course, if it does leak, you need to make it 'accessible' so removal of linings /insulation is required.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

17 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

The use of a bulkhead fitting on a gas pipe is an instance where you may have an 'inaccesible' joint that is visible for inspection. Most leak detector sprays will have a pipe that enables it to be directed at such a joint. Of course, if it does leak, you need to make it 'accessible' so removal of linings /insulation is required.

On my boat, the one bulkhead gas fitting in to the cabin wasn't a joint. The bulkhead fitting was placed to protect the pipe from chafing on the steel work, but it was drilled through so a single pipe could be run through without break. There are no olives, or compression nuts on the fitting, so it is obvious from both sides that it is not a joint. Still visible from both sides, but in this case the visibility is to say to a BSS examiner that this is not a joint!

Jen

[Ex Brummie]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

On my boat, the one bulkhead gas fitting in to the cabin wasn't a joint. The bulkhead fitting was placed to protect the pipe from chafing on the steel work, but it was drilled through so a single pipe could be run through without break. There are no olives, or compression nuts on the fitting, so it is obvious from both sides that it is not a joint. Still visible from both sides, but in this case the visibility is to say to a BSS examiner that this is not a joint!

Jen

What stops it chafing on the fitting? I'd rather see that done with olives holding it even if it is a straight through pipe.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

18 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

What stops it chafing on the fitting? I'd rather see that done with olives holding it even if it is a straight through pipe.

Much increased surface area. Softer metal.

Edited to add: Chamfered entry each end that would otherwise have shaped the olives. Thirteen and a half years in place so far and it hasn't worn through yet!

Edited May 2, 2021 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Tracy D'arth]

16 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Much increased surface area. Softer metal.

Nuts,

 

 

 

2, compression and olives, that's what would stop it rubbing. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Just now, Tracy D&#x27;arth said:

Nuts,

 

 

 

2, compression and olives, that's what would stop it rubbing. 

Thirteen and a half years like that so far. How long do you think it will take? When should I start worrying?

[Tracy D'arth]

Next week!  ?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

6 minutes ago, Tracy D&#x27;arth said:

Next week!  ?

Near the start of the week, or towards the end? ?

[Jackofalltrades]

12 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Thirteen and a half years like that so far. How long do you think it will take? When should I start worrying?

 

Thirteen you say. Unlucky for some. I used to be a bingo caller.

 

Not all of the above is true.

 

When did you last check your nuts? And pipe? How lucky do you feel (punk)?

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Depends when you last had a good look at it  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

With any luck there will be a slight bend in the pipe inside which will make it  rattle free so it won't fret,  so don't fret !!!

[Jen-in-Wellies]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Depends when you last had a good look at it  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

With any luck there will be a slight bend in the pipe inside which will make it  rattle free so it won't fret,  so don't fret !!!

Exactly so. Plus the copper saddle clamps at the proper intervals thereafter, so the only movement will be teensy bit of thermal expansion. Fret it does not. Installed by a gas safe chap, who was also a BSS examiner. I know that argument from authority isn't the best, but the risk is microscopic.

BSS says

LPG pipes passing through metallic bulkheads or decks must be
protected by the use of sleeves, grommets, or bulkhead fittings.

So this makes the bulkhead fitting effectively a sleeve, rather than a bulkhead fitting.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Jen-in-Wellies

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

On my boat, the one bulkhead gas fitting in to the cabin wasn't a joint. The bulkhead fitting was placed to protect the pipe from chafing on the steel work, but it was drilled through so a single pipe could be run through without break. There are no olives, or compression nuts on the fitting, so it is obvious from both sides that it is not a joint. Still visible from both sides, but in this case the visibility is to say to a BSS examiner that this is not a joint!

Jen

Didn't we talk about this set up with Blackrose and his maybe gas leak.