"Domestic cooker not suitable for use on a boat"

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

I bet it doesn't but the non mains voltage ones seem to be either nasty or very expensive.

 

And of course none of this gets us further forward with getting the gas fixed and the BS Cert issued.

 

 

OK so if a gas safe engineer has condemned an appliance it has to be disconnected, labeled as unsave with a disclaimer if anyone reconnects it  and the supply capped off.  Has he done this?  If he hasn't, he is in breach of his gas safe regulations and can lose his certification.

 

It is all bull droppings.  Refuse to buy a new cooker unless a better reason can be quoted for refusal. Refuse to pay the examiner and get another in, I can recommend Stephen Williams who is also gas safe registered. Mob: 07814-530679. You will get no unicorn farts from him.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, frangar said:

If you can fit a 600mm deep cooker there's plenty of options...quite a few have battery igntion...or use a match...a few need 240v for fans and the like but theres lots of other models out there. Id get in touch with the BSS office and find an other examiner preferably one with a brain. What else needs sorting on the Gas for the BSS?

It all depends how much time you spend on your boat....define liveaboard for gas purposes?....I did all my own gas installation...and Ive changed the regulator and other bits over the years....we pass BSS with no issues...yet ive seen some jobs done by so called professional fitters that are scary

 

 

It doesnt depend on how much time you spend on the boat - as far as using appliances that are suitable (recommended) that appears to be a BSS instruction that applies to all boats (is it a new instruction ? I don't know) but its not the first time I've heard an examiner state that the BSS requires it.

 

This was issued to examiners in 2016, yes it refers specifically to Beko but also says Boat owners are guided to select LPG cooker appliances that are suitable for use with LPG in the marine environment and fitted by competent persons to the manufacturer’s instructions for boat installation.

 

 

 

BSS Examiners may have received or been made aware that British Marine has circulated widely a letter received from the Beko Quality Manager in response to a letter from British Marine, clarifying the Beko position that its cooker products should not be installed in boats. The letter also expressed a general view, provided to Beko by Gas Safe Register, that gas engineers would be obliged to disconnect LPG appliances in circumstances where the installation instructions disallow installation in boats. Publishing this information out of context has raised concerns and the BSS has been asked by ABSE to advise BSS Examiners how to react to the published letter. In discussion with the Beko Quality Manager it is clear that the letter exchange with British Marine was in the context of Beko recently changing the installation instructions on its cooker products to align with the position always adopted to customers who make telephone enquiries, namely that Beko cooker products should not be installed in boats.  

The manager went on to say that the reason for this position was that the products had only been approved to standards supporting the domestic home environment and that currently, no assessment has been made Ref: 16-003 BSS Examiner News - April Page 2 of 2 against the standards for Beko cooking appliances in the marine environment. So that is why boat owners are advised to not install current Beko cookers in boats. To be clear, there is no immediately dangerous safety issue underlying the changed installation instructions. With this assurance, BSS Examiners coming across Beko cookers on boats are guided to apply the BSS requirements as they would do for any other make of cooker. There are no additional checking or reporting actions to perform. Boat owners are guided to select LPG cooker appliances that are suitable for use with LPG in the marine environment and fitted by competent persons to the manufacturer’s instructions for boat installation

 

 

[David Mack]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Unless the installation manual specifically says it is suitable for use in a boat then it is presumed not to be suitable.

On which basis, neither of the cooker models mentioned in this thread is suitable for use in houses!

[Tim Lewis]

From the latest Waterways World

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Boat owners are guided to select LPG cooker appliances that are suitable for use with LPG in the marine environment and fitted by competent persons to the manufacturer’s instructions for boat installation

"Guided", not "required". 

 

Since the BSS produces a list of CO alarms which are suitable for use in boats, perhaps they can issue a list of cookers which meet the requirements! Because some of those on sale from the mainstream chandlers would seem not to be.

[StephenA]

17 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

OK so if a gas safe engineer has condemned an appliance it has to be disconnected, labeled as unsave with a disclaimer if anyone reconnects it  and the supply capped off.  Has he done this?  If he hasn't, he is in breach of his gas safe regulations and can lose his certification.

 

It is all bull droppings.  Refuse to buy a new cooker unless a better reason can be quoted for refusal. Refuse to pay the examiner and get another in, I can recommend Stephen Williams who is also gas safe registered. Mob: 07814-530679. You will get no unicorn farts from him.

 

Its not the BS examiner - he failed the cooker on a yellow flame and us needing a new regulator.

 

The gas engineer used by Norbury to fix the burner is saying it's not suitable, and I assume therefore refusing to clean it.

 

So I guess if we drove up there, cleaned it ourselves (I suspect its just got crud sitting on the burner) and replaced the regulator and hose ourselves (as people say you just have to be competent, not registered) then it would pass...... 

 

The annoying thing is that if we just decided to say "Sod It" and get a new cooker fitted its finding one that will fit in the space (So many seem to be about 60mm shorter now), and getting it delivered to the boat.... or does anyone know someone round norbury who is gas competent and not a complete and utter arse.?

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by StephenA

[Tracy D'arth]

11 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

Its not the BS examiner - he failed the cooker on a yellow flame and us needing a new regulator.

 

The gas engineer used by Norbury to fix the burner is saying it's not suitable, and I assume therefore refusing to clean it.

 

So I guess if we drove up there, cleaned it ourselves (I suspect its just got crud sitting on the burner) and replaced the regulator and hose ourselves (as people say you just have to be competent, not registered) then it would pass...... 

 

The annoying thing is that if we just decided to say "Sod It" and get a new cooker fitted its finding one that will fit in the space (So many seem to be about 60mm shorter now), and getting it delivered to the boat.

 

Right, you need a new regulator and rubber hose if it is over 5 years old, it will be date coded. Fit with either clench rings or stainless worm drive hose clips.

 

The yellow flame is indicative of too much gas or too little air for complete combustion.

 Too much gas could be the faulty regulator, the pressure being too high.

Too little air could likely be fluff in the air venturis forward of the jets but unlikely if all the burner flames are yellow.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Tracy D'arth

[David Mack]

Or say "sod it" and get another examiner.

[StephenA]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Or say "sod it" and get another examiner.

 

Its not the BS examiner, its the Gas Safe gas person who is basically kicking back.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Or say "sod it" and get another examiner.

 

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Or say "sod it" and get another examiner.

Not if he has yellow flames, there is a fault that needs attention. 

 I would like to know on what grounds the LPG regulator was deemed faulty. If it is over pressurising the cooker that could be all that is wrong.

[StephenA]

52 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Right, you need a new regulator and rubber hose if it is over 5 years old, it will be date coded. Fit with either clench rings or stainless worm drive hose clips.

 

The yellow flame is indicative of too much gas or too little air for complete combustion.

 Too much gas could be the faulty regulator, the pressure being too high.

Too little air could likely be fluff in the air venturis forward of the jets but unlikely if all the burner flames are yellow.

 

Only the oven has a yellow flame, I suspect that changing the regulator might fix it - but the Gas engineer is apparently refusing to do the work as the cooker isn't suitable for marine use because he says it isn't.

 

The cooker was shipped from Hotpoint with propane jets fitted and it has two connectors on the back, one for LPG and one for natural gas (which is capped off).

 

 

49 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

Its not the BS examiner, its the Gas Safe gas person who is basically kicking back.

 

49 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

 

Not if he has yellow flames, there is a fault that needs attention. 

 I would like to know on what grounds the LPG regulator was deemed faulty. If it is over pressurising the cooker that could be all that is wrong.

 

Its over 10 years old, as, I suspect , is the flexi hose in the gas locker.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by StephenA

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, StephenA said:

 

I suspect that changing the regulator might fix it - but the Gas engineer is apparently refusing to do the work as the cooker isn't suitable for marine use because he says it isn't.

 

The cooker was shipped from Hotpoint with propane jets fitted and it has two connectors on the back, one for LPG and one for natural gas (which is capped off).

 

 

 

I think you will find that the 2 connections are just left and right hand side supplies and that they are on the same manifold inside.

[StephenA]

45 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I think you will find that the 2 connections are just left and right hand side supplies and that they are on the same manifold inside.

 

Possibly - it's  been a while since I was round the back of it.

 

[Tony Brooks]

Oven burners are a devil for getting boiled over food and grease into them. If it were mine I would be seeing how to get it our to clean the holes and jet etc. Often not easy on modern cookers.

[Cheshire cat]

The only time I got a BS fail was from Norbury and they charged me full wack for a re-test. It took all of two minutes to re-check the failed items. I wasn't impressed.

I suspect Tony is correct "food in the works will be the issue. A 1mm drill bit works wonders.

[StephenA]

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Oven burners are a devil for getting boiled over food and grease into them. If it were mine I would be seeing how to get it our to clean the holes and jet etc. Often not easy on modern cookers.

 

The instructions for the cooker show how to remove it as you have to take it out for the Natural Gas  / LPG conversion

 

[nicknorman]

It’s clear you are not liveaboard, therefore the GSIUR specifically doesn’t apply to your boat. My mantra is “if you want a job done properly, do it yourself!” So if I were you I would go up there, remove the oven burner (which usually just lifts out), clean it out thoroughly.
Typically the burner comes out without the jet, the air is mixed with the gas after the jet so most likely the jet doesn’t need to be removed - symptoms of a blocked jet is just not enough flame, rather than yellow flame which indicates not enough air. Dont poke the jet hole with anything hard like steel wire because it is very easy to enlarge the hole. So once the burner / air mixer is clean, the flame will be good and the BSS man will be happy.
You simply don’t need a Gas Safe person, let alone an over zealous one. Incidentally, we have a Beko gas fan oven which is designed for a house, but so far BSS man has not taken offence at it - because there are no grounds to!

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, StephenA said:

 

I'm not sure if Gas Safe has any say on boat installs - it's not something that we've ever had to cope with.

I had a BSC done by a Gas Safe examiner because the previous examiner, and I won't go in to why I would not use him, insisted that if he did it I d need a bubble tester.

My guy pulled out the cooker and it turned out it was installed with armoured tubing, which is contrary to manufaacturer instruction,. a coil of copper tubing, and a test point were installed, the cooker has flame failure but needs to be lit with matches.. SO the cooker should have failed all six previous certifications! 

Edited April 29, 2021 by LadyG

[StephenA]

15 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It’s clear you are not liveaboard, therefore the GSIUR specifically doesn’t apply to your boat. My mantra is “if you want a job done properly, do it yourself!” So if I were you I would go up there, remove the oven burner (which usually just lifts out), clean it out thoroughly.
Typically the burner comes out without the jet, the air is mixed with the gas after the jet so most likely the jet doesn’t need to be removed - symptoms of a blocked jet is just not enough flame, rather than yellow flame which indicates not enough air. Dont poke the jet hole with anything hard like steel wire because it is very easy to enlarge the hole. So once the burner / air mixer is clean, the flame will be good and the BSS man will be happy.
You simply don’t need a Gas Safe person, let alone an over zealous one. Incidentally, we have a Beko gas fan oven which is designed for a house, but so far BSS man has not taken offence at it - because there are no grounds to!

 

I think we'll have to do that - I feel that we are being held to ransom by the GS registered engineer, maybe I should get his name / reg number and report him to Gas Safe.

 

I've bounced a question to the BSS office asking them to clarify if Gas Safe regulation override BSS.( and purposely mentioned the "Domestic, not suitable" statement)

Edited April 29, 2021 by StephenA

[LadyG]

4 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

I think we'll have to do that - I feel that we are being held to ransom by the GS registered engineer, maybe I should get his name / reg number and report him to Gas Safe.

 

I've bounced a question to the BSS office asking them to clarify if Gas Safe regulation override BSS.

I don't see why an inspector has anything to do with a retailer of appliances, ask him if he is on commission, in a roundabout way, lol. 

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

and I won't go in to why I would not use him, insisted that if he did it I d need a bubble tester.

 

 

That's both the rule of the BSS and the Law of the land. Unless your examiner is Gas Safe registered he cannot touch your gas UNLESS you have a bubble tester.

 

He can do all of the rest of the BSS and watch a gas safe registered person do the leak test, but better to get the right one in the first place.

 

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used primarily for residential or domestic purposes fall within scope of a piece of UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, the law demands that anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered.

As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of a screw nipple on a gas test point, the scope of the GSIUR includes carrying out BSS LPG tightness test.

Therefore, on a boat in scope of GSIUR, examiners who are not Gas Safe registered can only complete check 7.12.2 (confirming gas tightness) by either:

• undertaking a gas tightness test using a bubble leak detector where fitted and correctly located; or,
• observing the tightness test conducted by a (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered installer

Where a BSS Examiner is also Gas Safe registered is undertaking a BSS Examination of a boat in scope of GSIUR such as if it is a boat used mainly for domestic/residential purposes, the Examiner could potentially identify safety-related LPG issues beyond the extent of the BSS Requirements. In doing so, they may feel duty-bound under their Gas Safe registration to report and discuss the additional issues.

Does a bubble leak detector do away with the need for a Gas Safe registered engineer testing the gas system on residential boats?

Yes, because any BSS Examiner can check for leaks using a fully functioning and appropriately located bubble tester. 

It is the case however that there is no BSS requirement for a bubble leak detector and so fitting one is matter of boat owner choice.

Note that all other types of gas work, such as adding or replacing an appliance, needs to be conducted by a Gas Safe registered engineer with the LPG boat competence listed on his/her identity card.

Is it recommended that boat owners fit a bubble leak detector?

Yes, fitting a bubble leak detector in the LPG cylinder locker is strongly recommended because it allows owners to check for leaks themselves and so enjoy piece of mind in between BSS Examinations. It is very important that fitting bubble leak detector on residential boats (and private leisure boats) is done by a LPG boat-competent Gas Safe registered engineer.

This is because the bubble leak detector must be correctly located and oriented, and for large volume LPG systems, the engineer may need to install a bypass arrangement to allow gas to flow past the detector when it is not being used.

Are there any other alternatives to allow non Gas Safe registered BSS Examiners to check residential boat gas systems?

Unfortunately there are only two methods that can be used to check for gas leaks on boats (manometer leak check and bubble leak detector check). The only other alternative is for the non-Gas Safe registered BSS Examiner to observe a manometer leak check conducted by a LPG boat-competent Gas Safe registered engineer.

 

 

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

I think we'll have to do that - I feel that we are being held to ransom by the GS registered engineer, maybe I should get his name / reg number and report him to Gas Safe.

 

I've bounced a question to the BSS office asking them to clarify if Gas Safe regulation override BSS.( and purposely mentioned the "Domestic, not suitable" statement)

 

 

 From the BSS :

 

Where a BSS Examiner is also Gas Safe registered is undertaking a BSS Examination of a boat in scope of GSIUR such as if it is a boat used mainly for domestic/residential purposes, the Examiner could potentially identify safety-related LPG issues beyond the extent of the BSS Requirements. In doing so, they may feel duty-bound under their Gas Safe registration to report and discuss the additional issues. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[nicknorman]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 From the BSS :

 

Where a BSS Examiner is also Gas Safe registered is undertaking a BSS Examination of a boat in scope of GSIUR such as if it is a boat used mainly for domestic/residential purposes, the Examiner could potentially identify safety-related LPG issues beyond the extent of the BSS Requirements. In doing so, they may feel duty-bound under their Gas Safe registration to report and discuss the additional issues. 

I think you are missing two points:

1/that the BSS examiner and the gas safe person are two separate people in this instance. Presumably the former isn't gas safe reg, as otherwise he wouldn't need to invoke the services of the latter. Of course the BSS examiner could, if he wished, service the burner himself but clearly doesn't want to.

2/That the boat is not used for live-aboard, hence is outside the scope of the GSIUR

Edited April 29, 2021 by nicknorman

[StephenA]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Where a BSS Examiner is also Gas Safe registered is undertaking a BSS Examination of a boat in scope of GSIUR such as if it is a boat used mainly for domestic/residential purposes, the Examiner could potentially identify safety-related LPG issues beyond the extent of the BSS Requirements. In doing so, they may feel duty-bound under their Gas Safe registration to report and discuss the additional issues. 

 

I dont have a problem with a GS registered engineer doing the work. I have a problem with said engineer apparently creating a regulation out of thin air. The cooker we have installed was shipped from the manufacturer in a lpg config, with its connection hose and a restraining chain and is no less suitable for a canalboat than the suggested replacement

[Machpoint005]

You could always ask him to quote the relevant regulation by chapter and verse.

[StephenA]

51 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

You could always ask him to quote the relevant regulation by chapter and verse.

 

Or we're going to go up on Saturday, pay for what they've done and get the work done by someone else who isn't going to be a Prima Donna who makes up his own regulations because he doesn't actually want to do the work.

 

Then we'll get it re-tested, and if they tell us its a full rest charge we'll go to someone else.  We were going to buy some new batteries, but I think Norbury will have lost that business, and other future business.