"Domestic cooker not suitable for use on a boat"

[StephenA]

We've got a propane cooker on the boat, with flame failure devices on all burners. It's been on the boat since 2009 but this year we've failed our BSS on it and the reason given is the title of this post.

 

Can someone please explain the difference to me? Have the regulations changed?

 

The cooker is a Hotpoint HW170LIK LPG Cooker

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

Go back and ask the examiner why that is. On the face of it has flame failures on all burners  it's the examiner going of on his own. Get the reply in writing and then contact the BSS office.

[David Mack]

Your BSS examiner must have told you why it is not suitable for use on a boat. 

 

There is a manual for this available at http://kitchen.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg/hotpoint/hw170lik.html and quick searches for the words "boat", "marine", "car", "vehicle" all produced no match. So as far as I can see the manufacturer is not suggesting it is not suitable for use in these situations. There are some restrictions on room size in relation to ventilation, but as long as you meet these you should be OK (and I would have thought the BSS advice on ventilation would take priority anyway).

 

It does say it is only suitable for domestic use, and not trade or business use, so maybe you couldn't use this in a hire boat, but I don't think your examiner can reasonably argue that 'domestic' means only in a house. The guarantee section of the manual does clarify that the word "domestic" relates to use, not location.

 

I suggest you push your BSS inspector on this, and if he won't give ground take it up with the BSC office.

Edited April 29, 2021 by David Mack

[StephenA]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Your BSS examiner must have told you why it is not suitable for use on a boat. 

 

There is a manual for this available at http://kitchen.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg/hotpoint/hw170lik.html and quick searches for the words "boat", "marine", "car", "vehicle" all produced no match. So as far as I can see the manufacturer is not suggesting it is not suitable for use in these situations. There are some restrictions on room size in relation to ventilation, but as long as you meet these you should be OK (and I would have thought the BSS advice on ventilation would take priority anyway).

 

It does say it is only suitable for domestic use, and not trade or business use, so maybe you couldn't use this in a hire boat, but I don't think your examiner can reasonably argue that 'domestic' means only in a house. The guarantee section of the manual does clarify that the word "domestic" relates to use, not location.

 

I suggest you push your BSS inspector on this, and if he won't give ground take it up with the BSC office.

 

Nope - all I've been told by Norbury is that it is a domestic cooker not suitable for use in a boat.  I've asked for an explanation but of course he (the BSS examiner) wants us to fit a new cooker at a cost of over 300.

 

And of course they have us over a barrel - we need to get the cert renewed so we can get out licence renewed.

 

Somehow I don't think I'm going to be going boating this weekend.

[David Mack]

What model cooker would he propose you fit? Might be interesting to go through the manual for that, because I suspect a lot of them will have some similar vaguely worded restrictions.

[StephenA]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

What model cooker would he propose you fit? Might be interesting to go through the manual for that, because I suspect a lot of them will have some similar vaguely worded restrictions.

 

Something like this apparently

 

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/products/statesman-legacy-50lpg-cooker-white-n55

 

Not that we can have a lid on it because of the cabin side slope, and we don't want a combined oven and grill

 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by StephenA

[Tracy D'arth]

Loads of boats have "domestic" model cookers on them. All the regs say is that it must have flame failure devices on all the burners, hob and oven/grill, and be suitable for LPG.

Is there a cooling fan that needs mains power?

Just now, StephenA said:

 

Something like this apparently

 

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/products/statesman-legacy-50lpg-cooker-white-n55

 

Not that we can have a lid on it because of the cabin side slope

 

 

Ah-   do the rear hob burners sit under the gunwale? If so its a fail on the fire safety grounds.

[Tony Brooks]

Telephone the BSS office and tell then the examiner is refusing to give the reason they have said your cooker is not BSS complaint and are using this to try to force you to buy a new one through him, It probably won't get you anywhere but ist worth a try. If it were mine I would be boating, looking for another examiner.

 

May also be worth contacting the local Trading Standards people.

[StephenA]

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Loads of boats have "domestic" model cookers on them. All the regs say is that it must have flame failure devices on all the burners, hob and oven/grill, and be suitable for LPG.

Is there a cooling fan that needs mains power?

Ah-   do the rear hob burners sit under the gunwale? If so its a fail on the fire safety grounds.

 

No they don't the whole thing sits forward of the gunwale... sitting in the same place that the cooker has sat since it was built in 1986.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

I have seen all sorts of house cookers on boats, Fagor, Hotpoint, Flavel, Range Smeg etc. and never had a problem

[Athy]

10 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

Nope - all I've been told by Norbury is that it is a domestic cooker not suitable for use in a boat.

Then Norbury don't know what "domestic" means.  If you're a boat owner using your cooker to heat or cook food, you ARE using it domestically.

[Tony Brooks]

Is there any sign of heat discolouration on the cabin side? If so that could be the reason but refusing to tell you sounds too much like sharp practice.

[Tracy D'arth]

What are Norbury doing getting between you and the examiner? They have no place getting involved. Get hold of the examiner and ask the organ grinder not his monkeys.

[StephenA]

Apparently it's not the BSS

 

Its Gas Safe - the gas engineer who came out to clean the oven burner and replace the main regulator  ( which needs replacing as its over 10 years old )  says that as the cooker does not explicitly state that it is suitable for fitting on a boat then it has to be removed and replace with one that does.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by StephenA

[David Mack]

And make it clear that if you do replace the cooker you will be getting someone else to supply and install it.

3 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Apparently it's not the BSS

 

Its Gas Safe - the gas engineer who came out to clean the oven burner and replace the main regulator  ( which needs replacing as its over 10 years old )  says that as the cooker does not explicitly state that it is suitable for fitting on a boat then it has to be removed and replace with one that does.

 

 

Does it say explicitly it is suitable for fitting in a house?

 

Edited to add: Just word searched the manual. The word "house" does not appear!

Edited April 29, 2021 by David Mack

[frangar]

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Telephone the BSS office and tell then the examiner is refusing to give the reason they have said your cooker is not BSS complaint and are using this to try to force you to buy a new one through him, It probably won't get you anywhere but ist worth a try. If it were mine I would be boating, looking for another examiner.

 

May also be worth contacting the local Trading Standards people.

Agree with this totally.....and Id be moving from Norbury ASAP...and looking for a new examiner after putting a complaint in with the BSS office

3 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Apparently it's not the BSS

 

Its Gas Safe - the gas engineer who came out to clean the oven burner and replace the main regulator  ( which needs replacing as its over 10 years old )  says that as the cooker does not explicitly state that it is suitable for fitting on a boat then it has to be removed and replace with one that does.

 

 

I dont think that's GasSafes remit....sounds like a nice money earner....Gassafe as far as I'm aware dont have any remit on boats that aren't residential...in this case I would suggest you say you just use it for long holidays and find yourself a new examiner and yard.

 

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Apparently it's not the BSS

 

Its Gas Safe - the gas engineer who came out to clean the oven burner and replace the main regulator  ( which needs replacing as its over 10 years old )  says that as the cooker does not explicitly state that it is suitable for fitting on a boat then it has to be removed and replace with one that does.

 

 

He sounds as if he's talking a load of gas.

[David Mack]

And about all the other gas stuff on the boat, Calor gas bottles, regulator, hoses, valves, copper pipe and fittings? Are they all specifically designated as suitable for boat use? If not, why has he not condemned them too?

[frangar]

33 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

Something like this apparently

 

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/products/statesman-legacy-50lpg-cooker-white-n55

 

Not that we can have a lid on it because of the cabin side slope, and we don't want a combined oven and grill

 

 

Thats a really horrible cheap cooker...the only saving grace it has is its 500mm deep as opposed to the more common 600mm. I looked at one to replace my Stoves 5000wl but the build quality isn't even close. Id be surprised if it says its specifically for a boat in its manual too!

[StephenA]

9 minutes ago, frangar said:

Agree with this totally.....and Id be moving from Norbury ASAP...and looking for a new examiner after putting a complaint in with the BSS office

I dont think that's GasSafes remit....sounds like a nice money earner....Gassafe as far as I'm aware dont have any remit on boats that aren't residential...in this case I would suggest you say you just use it for long holidays and find yourself a new examiner and yard.

 

 

I'm not sure if Gas Safe has any say on boat installs - it's not something that we've ever had to cope with.

[David Mack]

35 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

Something like this apparently

 

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/products/statesman-legacy-50lpg-cooker-white-n55

 

That might be supplied through a chandler, but if you check the manual on MC's website, that doesn't mention boat or marine use either!

[frangar]

Just now, StephenA said:

 

I'm not sure if Gas Safe has any say on boat installs - it's not something that we've ever had to cope with.

They have some remit for works on a boat used residentially eg if any work is carried out on the gas system then the bod doing it has to be Gas Safe registered....if it wasn't a full time residence then the gas work can be by a competent person I believe. 

[StephenA]

1 minute ago, frangar said:

Thats a really horrible cheap cooker...the only saving grace it has is its 500mm deep as opposed to the more common 600mm. I looked at one to replace my Stoves 5000wl but the build quality isn't even close. Id be surprised if it says its specifically for a boat in its manual too!

 

I bet it doesn't but the non mains voltage ones seem to be either nasty or very expensive.

 

And of course none of this gets us further forward with getting the gas fixed and the BS Cert issued.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, StephenA said:

ts Gas Safe - the gas engineer who came out to clean the oven burner and replace the main regulator  ( which needs replacing as its over 10 years old )  says that as the cooker does not explicitly state that it is suitable for fitting on a boat then it has to be removed and replace with one that does.

 

 

 

I was going to suggest that as the reason.

 

Unless the installation manual specifically says it is suitable for use in a boat then it is presumed not to be suitable.

 

Not saying is is NOT suitable is not the same, I'm sure it doesn't say it is not suitable for installation in a three wheeled van either, not saying it isnt suitable is not an admission that it is suitable..

 

Liveaboards have to realise that the GSIUR applies to them.

But similarly, 'must be suitable' rules apply to all boaters that require a BSSC.

 

[frangar]

Just now, StephenA said:

 

I bet it doesn't but the non mains voltage ones seem to be either nasty or very expensive.

 

And of course none of this gets us further forward with getting the gas fixed and the BS Cert issued.

 

 

If you can fit a 600mm deep cooker there's plenty of options...quite a few have battery igntion...or use a match...a few need 240v for fans and the like but theres lots of other models out there. Id get in touch with the BSS office and find an other examiner preferably one with a brain. What else needs sorting on the Gas for the BSS?

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I was going to suggest that as the reason.

 

Unless the installation manual specifically says it is suitable for use in a boat then it is presumed not to be suitable.

 

Not saying is is NOT suitable is not the same, I'm sure it doesn't say it is not suitable for installation in a three wheeled van either, not saying it isnt suitable is not an admission that it is suitable..

 

Liveaboards have to realise that the GSIUR applies to them.

But similarly, 'must be suitable' rules apply to all boaters that require a BSSC.

 

It all depends how much time you spend on your boat....define liveaboard for gas purposes?....I did all my own gas installation...and Ive changed the regulator and other bits over the years....we pass BSS with no issues...yet ive seen some jobs done by so called professional fitters that are scary