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Old Son

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A friend of mine has recently purchased a boat and requires some specialist legal advice because there are some 'issues'

 

Can anybody recommend a specialist legal company that deals with inland boating?

 

Thanks

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2 minutes ago, Old Son said:

A friend of mine has recently purchased a boat and requires some specialist legal advice because there are some 'issues'

 

Can anybody recommend a specialist legal company that deals with inland boating?

 

Thanks

 

 

There used to be (maybe still are) legal people advertising in the various magazines 'small ads'.

 

If it something to do with the purchase and 'fit for purpose', not as described etc. then a 'normal' lawyer with relevant knowledge would be the best bet.

If it something to do with, maybe hitting another boat, and the 'laws of the sea' etc then you will need a marine specialist.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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35 minutes ago, Old Son said:

A friend of mine has recently purchased a boat and requires some specialist legal advice because there are some 'issues'

 

Can anybody recommend a specialist legal company that deals with inland boating?

 

Thanks

 

Unless there is something really wrong and obviously wrong then don't go down the legal route as you will likely waste your money. There was a case recently where it was reported that the judge decided in favour of the boat builder even though they probably in the wrong, because the judge felt that the builder knew more about boats than the customer so was the more reliable witness.

 

............Dave

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29 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Unless there is something really wrong and obviously wrong then don't go down the legal route as you will likely waste your money. There was a case recently where it was reported that the judge decided in favour of the boat builder even though they probably in the wrong, because the judge felt that the builder knew more about boats than the customer so was the more reliable witness.

 

............Dave

https://noproblem.org.uk/blog/my-day-in-court-with-collingwood-boat-builders/

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Following a survey which the boat passed with flying colours, and subsequently needing to spend over £20k to get it 'safe & sea worthy' I tried to take the surveyor to court, engaged a Solicitor who basically said :

 

"There is no way you can make a claim against a surveyor as the small-print absolves him of any responsibility the second he walks away from the boat, and for anything he may have missed". He said, "happy to go to court, I'll take loads of money of you, you will lose and the other side will take loads of money off you and you'll stiill need to spend the £20k.

Just spend the money on the boat and take it as a lesson that having a survey is a waste on money".

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8 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Bar room lawyers will get you into trouble.

Citizens Advice, free and impartial. Ask at a local library.

Isn't there something about its worth wat you pay for it, but I think the OP was asking for suggestions of professionals 

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4 hours ago, Old Son said:

A friend of mine has recently purchased a boat and requires some specialist legal advice because there are some 'issues'

 

Can anybody recommend a specialist legal company that deals with inland boating?

 

Thanks

 

My simple answer is no :( 

 

However, if you gave us an idea of what the issue is, maybe someone will have had a similar experience.

 

If it is related to problems with the boat and a desire to sue the surveyor, the seller, or the broker, I could suggest that a lawyer might be happy to take a lot of money from your friend, possibly with some/not much, chance of success, along with the risk of having to pay the other sides costs.

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3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Isn't there something about its worth wat you pay for it, but I think the OP was asking for suggestions of professionals 

I can give you my two professionals who cocked  up two perfectly simple transactions, I mean, 

1) sending out the wrong details to prospective purchasers. Such that only one person actually viewed my flat in two years, because it was 'subject to flooding' rather than NOT subject to flooding.

2)  made a contract that meant they would keep my money  in their account for nine days which would mean I had to borrow £xxx, 000  if I wanted to buy another house.  Fortunately they were so inefficient that they forgot to ensure I had signed their contract before demanding I comply with their terms (remember, I AM THE CLIENT.) 

REMEMBER soliciters sign some sort of oath declaring they work in your best interests, that's a joke.

They are intelligent, and professional.... nope:, I was chatting to a girl I knew, she was recently qualified, as it happened, but she was just agreeing with one party, in a fairly minor disagreement, regardless of the legality or  facts of the matter. So don't assume solicitors are anything other than useless parasites. I have only met one who displays integrity and / or provides good advice. 

I have employed about six. I have paid three. . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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13 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I can give you my two professionals who cocked  up two perfectly simple transactions, I mean, 

1) sending out the wrong details to prospective purchasers. Such that only one person actually viewed my flat in two years, because it was 'subject to flooding' rather than NOT subject to flooding.

 

Is it different in Scotland ?

 

Whenever we have sold a house we have been given the details to proof read before going to print, that gives you the opportunity to highlight and correct any errors - sounds like you may have failed in your proof reading.

Its always someone elses fault.

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

So don't assume solicitors are anything other than useless parasites. I have only met one who displays integrity and / or provides good advice. 

I have employed about six. I have paid three. . 

 

That sounds about the same percentage as you paid your boat electricians and plumbers.

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OK, I have asked some questions. The boat was purchased by a 'totally inexperienced about boats lady' last June from a broker.

 

The boat was sold as being 3 years old, it turns out the boat is actually 4 years old. At the time of purchase no survey was carried out as she relied on the broker being honest and the fact the boat was only 3 years old!

 

Since owning the boat, a lot of issues have arisen and she has subsequently had to have the boat rewired because the installation was dangerous. She had a local experienced boat engineer look at the boat and he came back with a two page list of faults.

 

Following advice she employed a surveyor to provide a report which included the same list of issues noted by the engineer. In addition she has been told by the surveyor that the boat should not have been sold by a broker without either an RCD or a BSC. My knowledge tells me that a boat 5 years old or less will require an RCD before it is sold but I was not aware a broker cannot sell without one or other.

 

There is also the issue about age of the boat. I understand the purchaser should ensure they check everything themselves (in this case the purchaser just would not know what to check) but surely the broker should have done the same? They have received a fee for their professional services.

 

What does the forum think?

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Who owned the boat when it was sold ?

Was the broker the owner or simply acting as the broker for the private seller ?

 

If it is from a private seller then the ONLY possible come back (I can see) is the lack of RCD documentation which is a legal requirement.

Who built the boat ?

Who fitted out the boat ?

I purchased a French made boat from a seller in Croatia and the RCD opaerwork was missing so I was not allowed to even take it out of the country, I had to contact the manufacturers and get copies of the RCD certification.

The manufacturer is obliged to keep records of the build for a minimum of 10 years, so she should be able to get copies - unless (the Elephant in the room) is that it was a home build and the RCD was not followed. In that case the the builder sold it illegally and it is them that should be held responsible.

 

There should be a full RCD paper trail, and since 2017, the RCD is now rated as being 'for the life of the boat'

 

It is quite simple to have erroneous manufacturing dates by a year.

The Hull will be marked with the HIN number and date of manufacture, but the boat may not have been completed / fitted out until the following year, so the Hull was made one year and the rest of the boat into the next year. I don't see any 'come-back' on age.

 

The fact there is a list of faults is totally irellevant and it is the buyers responsibility to ensure that everything is what it should be and that is why all brokers, websites etc say you should be employing a surveyor.

If the faults are structural / Safety / RCD failures then the builder may be responsible, if they are due to someone having installed or modified (say) a new gas system or electrical system then that person should have had the boat re surveyed with a PCA (Post Construction Assessment) which is again an RCD requirement.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Old Son said:

I understand the purchaser should ensure they check everything themselves (in this case the purchaser just would not know what to check) but surely the broker should have done the same? They have received a fee for their professional services.

 

The broker has no legal requirement to either check the boat or to inform the buyer of any faults.

The broker is acting on behalf of the seller and the seller pays their fees - not the buyer.

 

The broker has no liability and (normally) makes this clear in the contract.

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Not much hope.

3 or 4 years old is an insignificant difference.

The broker sells the boat, they likely value it but otherwise do not do any sort of survey, that's what surveyors are for ?

Tesco will sell you a bottle of beer but they don't test the contents for you.

The brokers small print will likely say "details provided by previous owner but not checked, correct only to the best of their knowledge".

It is quite legal to sell  a boat without a BSS, lots of boats are sold as "project boats".

The lack of an RCD could be illegal. This could be a complicated court case where the broker could face a big fine but to date I don't think our legal system has taken any interest in this sort of thing, it is essentially European law. It could also open that much talked about can of worms.

 

I assume this boat is an owner fit out that the owner intended to keep for 5 years but was overtaken by circumstances?????? This might explain the age issue as maybe the boat sat on land for its first year so has a later "first registered" date????

 

...............Dave

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1 minute ago, dmr said:

I don't think our legal system has taken any interest in this sort of thing, it is essentially European law

 

It is now UK standalone law and we have our own RCD requirements (which are the same as they were, but with a new UK front cover)

 

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

It is quite legal to sell  a boat without a BSS, lots of boats are sold as "project boats".

 

Even discounting 'project boats' it is not illegal to sell a leisure boat without a BSS - in fact I'd estimate that 90% of leisure boats in the UK do not have (or need) a BSSC.

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I imagine she thought buying a boat via a broker gave her an extra level of protection, perhaps via Trading Standards, this may only apply if the broker owned the boat he is selling, in most cases the broker is just agreeing to act as an agent for the vendor, and the fact she is a tyro is not taken in to account.

It's not like a car, in that there are no guide prices, I assume she feels agent should have checked documentation eg for date of commission, but my feeling is that she should have done so, the agent (broker) is primarily concerned with getting his commission.

There are some brokers who have a better reputation than others, but most will take on most boats, its caveat empetor.

I have a lot of sympathy for her, as I have bought and sold quite a few big money items, a few have been satisfactory, quite a few have not. It's very stressfull.

I don't quite get why she had two reports on the boat after purchase, I assume she was considering taking 'someone' to court, sadly that is a high cost, high risk strategy.

She could run this past Trading Standards, but my experience of asking TS was that my Local Authority got rid of this hot potato by 'employinhg' ie outsourcing to a young guy who answers the phone and tells you bad news. I know this because I had two seperate issues and both times spoke to the same young lad. He was not a solicitor and had no legal training, I know because on the second occasion, having received almost exactly the same speil, I asked him outright.

 

Edited by LadyG
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2 hours ago, Old Son said:

What does the forum think?

 

I think the broker must have thought it was Christmas when she came along :(

 

Pretty much not a cat in hells chance of gaining either satisfaction or recompense from anyone. It would be interesting to see what the engineer and surveyor found wrong - e.g. would a surveyor have discovered the faulty wiring, or did things "work" when switches were flicked?

 

I would advise compiling a list of jobs/things to do, and work through it over time, like the rest of us here.

 

If she joined the forum, she would get a lot of good advice, (as well as a bit of a hard time from some :( ), as she works through her list.

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15 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

I think the broker must have thought it was Christmas when she came along :(

 

Pretty much not a cat in hells chance of gaining either satisfaction or recompense from anyone. It would be interesting to see what the engineer and surveyor found wrong - e.g. would a surveyor have discovered the faulty wiring, or did things "work" when switches were flicked?

 

I would advise compiling a list of jobs/things to do, and work through it over time, like the rest of us here.

 

If she joined the forum, she would get a lot of good advice, (as well as a bit of a hard time from some :( ), as she works through her list.

 

Those were my thoughts but I did not post them because of the danger of being put off for life you identify. I also wonder how someone who's not very technical can sort the good advice from the bad and downright misleading. I am not suggesting the poor advice is malicious though,

 

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My boat failed the BSS on electrics four years after the previous examiner rewired it for me. Cost me a small fortune. Every "expert" and inspector will have a different view of what's safe or legal, and none of them really know what they're talking about and all of them can insist you change stuff. It's a normal boating nightmare these days, and there's nowt you can do about it except pay. Tell your friend welcome to the world of boats, get the boat how she likes it and try not to get stressed about it.

She is unlikely to explode, catch fire or sink, and what else matters?

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7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Those were my thoughts but I did not post them because of the danger of being put off for life you identify. I also wonder how someone who's not very technical can sort the good advice from the bad and downright misleading. I am not suggesting the poor advice is malicious though,

 

I couldn't agree more and IMHO that's the downside of this forum (and other similar ones). Too much irrelevant information which, although possibly accurate, can really cloud a straightforward issue and I suspect leave the enquirer more confused at the end than at the beginning! It would be nice to see some so-called experts preface their remarks with a comment such as "in my experience" or, heaven forbid, occasionally acknowledge that there may be more than one way of solving a problem and that others may have a better solution.  I think, however, that this is a forlorn hope. For what it's worth, my advice to anyone seeking advice on forums such as this would be to look at the various postings but don't necessarily assume that all contributors are necessarily experts or even experienced in all matters, and I include myself in that.?

 

Howard

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