Calor Gas currently not supplying new fills

[jetzi]

On 19/08/2021 at 09:50, Alan de Enfield said:

You can always buy a 47kg cylinder and a pipe with POL attachments and fill your smaller cylinders from the 47Kg.

 

Connect the pipe at both ends, open the valve on the empty one, open the valve on the full one, when full close the valve on the 'full one' then close the valve on the 'empty one'.

Ideally you should stand the empty cylinder on a set of scales, note the empty weight, and fill until the weight reads 13kg (assuming you are filling a 13kg cylinder) more than it did. It is then 'full'. Gas cylinders should not be overfilled (more than 80% of capacity) to allow for expansion as in hot weather the gas will expand and could increase the pressures to danger point if the cylinder is 100% full.

 

The advantage of this is you can fill up your cylinder at any 'level' of gas remaining so you can ensure you have a full cylinder for your cruise.

 

I'm intrigued. But if I'm understanding right, won't the "empty" bottle only fill until the pressure in the two bottles as equalised? So from a 47kg bottle, you can get 2x full 13kg refills out of it, but then there's 21kg left. So filling again would only put 10kg into the smaller bottle, and then 5kg on the fourth fill, after which it's probably no longer worth the effort. Am I understanding this incorrectly or does this mean you're always going to be wasting the last 5kg or so of gas in the big 47kg bottle?

 

As a total aside, what happens to the remaining gas in a bottle if you return it and it's not empty, does it just get saved on the next fill (reducing costs for Calor) or is it wasted?

[MoominPapa]

30 minutes ago, jetzi said:

 

I'm intrigued. But if I'm understanding right, won't the "empty" bottle only fill until the pressure in the two bottles as equalised? So from a 47kg bottle, you can get 2x full 13kg refills out of it, but then there's 21kg left. So filling again would only put 10kg into the smaller bottle, and then 5kg on the fourth fill, after which it's probably no longer worth the effort. Am I understanding this incorrectly or does this mean you're always going to be wasting the last 5kg or so of gas in the big 47kg bottle?

 

As a total aside, what happens to the remaining gas in a bottle if you return it and it's not empty, does it just get saved on the next fill (reducing costs for Calor) or is it wasted?

 

The clue is the "L" in LPG - liquid petroleum gas. Inside the cylinders it's a liquid, so you can pour it from one container to another and transfer the vast majority. Just connecting the valves with a pipe won't do this though, you need to invert the source cylinder, or use a cylinder with a dip tube that picks up the liquid from the bottom.

 

MP.

[MtB]

58 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

 

The clue is the "L" in LPG - liquid petroleum gas. Inside the cylinders it's a liquid, so you can pour it from one container to another and transfer the vast majority. Just connecting the valves with a pipe won't do this though, you need to invert the source cylinder, or use a cylinder with a dip tube that picks up the liquid from the bottom.

 

MP.

 

I'm intrigued about this. Joining two bottles together and opening the valves will (obviously) result in the vapour pressures in the two bottles instantly equalising, so I think filling one bottle from another requires the following: The empty bottle valve needs to have been opened to atmosphere to ensure there is no pressure inside. Then connect one's Pol-to-Pol connecting hose to both bottles, with the donating bottle inverted so the valve is 'under water' with the LPG so to speak. Then turning the donor bottle valve ON will result in liquid passing along the hose and filling the recipient bottle, compressing the residual gas within. Once the gas pressure inside the receiving bottle has risen to match the vapour pressure inside the donor bottle, liquid will stop flowing. This might happen before or after the recipient bottle passes the 90% full safety threshold, hence the need to be weighing it. 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

90% full safety threshold,

 

 

80% according to the Calor man.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

80% according to the Calor man.

 

Probably right, but it's academic as the same Calor man strongly disapproves of users transferring LPG between bottles! 

 

On the other hand, I cannot think of any other use for that Pol-to-Pol connector hose for sale on their website...

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Probably right, but it's academic as the same Calor man strongly disapproves of users transferring LPG between bottles! 

 

On the other hand, I cannot think of any other use for that Pol-to-Pol connector hose for sale on their website...

 

 

 

 

 

The Calor man comes in a big road tanker to fill up our tank and I asked him why he only filled it to 80% and he said 'regulations' to allow for expansion.

 

Bit like Lithiums - recharge at 20% SoC and stop at 80% SoC

 

 

When refilling my camping gas cartridges, simply screw in the adapter and the 'pins' depress the valves opening both at the same time, turn on the 'tap' and the liquid flows from 'top' (doner) to bottom (recipient) you can get pretty much all of the liquid out of the doner cartridge.

 

When doing it with 47kg (for example) lie them down, connect them up and as the doner empties lift the end up so the liquid runs down to the valve - or - place it lying down on a table (or similar)

 

You get a far better fill if the recipient cartridge /cylinder is colder than the doner. Camping sized cartridges can go in the freezer for 30 minutes before transfer.

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The Calor man comes in a big road tanker to fill up our tank and I asked him why he only filled it to 80% and he said 'regulations' to allow for expansion.

 

Bit like Lithiums - recharge at 20% SoC and stop at 80% SoC

 

I still have in mind the figure is 90% for portable bottles. 

 

I should know being LPG and GSR qualified but I can't remember as it is something I never do. It is one of those things you need to know every five years as it will be an exam question but any GSR bod caught doing it would surely be thrown off the Register! 

 

 

[Momac]

23 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Probably right, but it's academic as the same Calor man strongly disapproves of users transferring LPG between bottles! 

 

On the other hand, I cannot think of any other use for that Pol-to-Pol connector hose for sale on their website...

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

 

We have those on the caravan park -but - the end fittings going into the change over are NOT POL.

[David Mack]

39 minutes ago, MtB said:

The empty bottle valve needs to have been opened to atmosphere to ensure there is no pressure inside.

Why? That just wastes any gas remaining. As soon as you connect the two bottles the empty bottle will be pressurised to the vapour pressure anyway.

[Tony Brooks]

With all this talk of filling one gas bottle from another, a word of caution. We tried that on the hire fleet to save on returning less than 1/4 full cylinders as empties. The result was a build up of gunk in the accepting cylinders that played havoc with the boat's gas systems. Especially equipment that had a cigarette tip type filter in the inlet port.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

I'm intrigued about this. Joining two bottles together and opening the valves will (obviously) result in the vapour pressures in the two bottles instantly equalising, so I think filling one bottle from another requires the following: The empty bottle valve needs to have been opened to atmosphere to ensure there is no pressure inside. Then connect one's Pol-to-Pol connecting hose to both bottles, with the donating bottle inverted so the valve is 'under water' with the LPG so to speak. Then turning the donor bottle valve ON will result in liquid passing along the hose and filling the recipient bottle, compressing the residual gas within. Once the gas pressure inside the receiving bottle has risen to match the vapour pressure inside the donor bottle, liquid will stop flowing. This might happen before or after the recipient bottle passes the 90% full safety threshold, hence the need to be weighing it. 

Or elevate the donor bottle while its inverted. They use to do this at the caravan/camp site I worked at while still at school 1963. Gas was included in the van hire price so every van had a full cylinder at change over. I think the hose was home made as ebay hadn't been thought of.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

Why? That just wastes any gas remaining. As soon as you connect the two bottles the empty bottle will be pressurised to the vapour pressure anyway.

 

Because if there is ANY gas left in the receiving bottle, there will be vapour pressure in it which exactly balances the vapour pressure in the donor bottle, meaning there is little or no gas pressure difference to make the liquid transfer from the donor bottle to the recipient bottle. 

4 hours ago, MartynG said:

 

As Alan points out, those are different. They are Pol one end, 3/8" BSP collar nut on the other.

[Naughty Cal]

On 30/08/2021 at 10:39, MtB said:

 

I still have in mind the figure is 90% for portable bottles. 

 

I should know being LPG and GSR qualified but I can't remember as it is something I never do. It is one of those things you need to know every five years as it will be an exam question but any GSR bod caught doing it would surely be thrown off the Register! 

 

 

Definitely 80% on our Gaslow bottles. 

[Momac]

On 30/08/2021 at 10:39, MtB said:

......any GSR bod caught doing it would surely be thrown off the Register! 

What law or regulation prohibits the practice of filling small  cylinders from large cylinders on a DIY basis?  (Just curious. I don't plan to do it)

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

What law or regulation prohibits the practice of filling small  cylinders from large cylinders on a DIY basis?  (Just curious. I don't plan to do it)

Isn't it in the T&C when you get a cylinder that they are only refiled by an authorised agent or something?

[Momac]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Isn't it in the T&C when you get a cylinder that they are only refiled by an authorised agent or something?

That's not a law or regulation.

In any case I dont have any contract with any bottle gas supplier. When I get a refill I just pay and get a receipt . No contract.

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, MartynG said:

That's not a law or regulation.

In any case I dont have any contract with any bottle gas supplier. When I get a refill I just pay and get a receipt . No contract.

I think the comment was "any GSR bod caught doing it would surely be thrown off the Register!" not that it was against any law. I suppose you could be charged with steeling the cylinder or receiving stolen property if you don't have it legitimately. 😞 

 

[David Mack]

On 30/08/2021 at 14:54, MtB said:

 

Because if there is ANY gas left in the receiving bottle, there will be vapour pressure in it which exactly balances the vapour pressure in the donor bottle, meaning there is little or no gas pressure difference to make the liquid transfer from the donor bottle to the recipient bottle. 

But as soon as you have transferred ANY liquid from the donor bottle to the receiving bottle, some of it will vapourise and there will be a vapour pressure in the receiving bottle. Yet the transfer can still continue.

My guess is that there is a state of equilibrium between the liquid and the gas. As soon as you create a situation which tends to pour liquid from the higher bottle to the lower bottle, the hydrostyatic head of liquid raises the pressure in the lower bottle, causing some of the gas therein to change to liquid, which falls to the bottom of the bottle, reducing the volume of gas, and allowing a little liquid to flow along the connecting pipe. This in turn causes a reduction in pressure of the gas in the upper bottle, so some of the liquid in it evaporates to fill the space and maintain the vapour pressure. The latent heat of these changes means that the upper bottle will tend to get cooler and the lower bottle warmer, which is why it helps to pre cool the lower bottle. Repeat and more liquid flows, until the lower bottle is full of liquid or the process is manually stopped at 80%/90% full.

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But as soon as you have transferred ANY liquid from the donor bottle to the receiving bottle, some of it will vapourise and there will be a vapour pressure in the receiving bottle. Yet the transfer can still continue.

 

I was thinking exactly this too after posting. So the question jumping off the page at me is does the transfer really continue? Has anyone here actually successfully done it?

 

 

14 minutes ago, David Mack said:

As soon as you create a situation which tends to pour liquid from the higher bottle to the lower bottle, the hydrostyatic head of liquid raises the pressure in the lower bottle, causing some of the gas therein to change to liquid,

 

This is stretching my knowledge of gas behaviour at the interface between gas and liquid. I'm not convinced raising the pressure of propane in the gas phase necessarily causes it to revert to liquid. I'll have a think about that....

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, MtB said:

I was thinking exactly this too after posting. So the question jumping off the page at me is does the transfer really continue? Has anyone here actually successfully done it?

 

Yes - regularly with the smaller camping-gas cylinders.

I have the pipe to do a 'big' calor clylinder transfer but as yet have never had a problem sourcing (full) calor cylinders so have not tried it.

 

I do not see any difference as it is the same gas and same principle.

[frangar]

I’ve just got a 13kg cylinder from our marina who haven’t experienced any shortages at all apparently. Even the gas place in Etruria had run out a couple of weeks ago and wasn’t getting any in for a few days. 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, frangar said:

I’ve just got a 13kg cylinder from our marina who haven’t experienced any shortages at all apparently. Even the gas place in Etruria had run out a couple of weeks ago and wasn’t getting any in for a few days. 

 

I bought a 3.9kg refill in the village shop in Napton the other day. The woman selling is commented (unprompted) they hadn't had any 3.9kg refills for ages and the one I was buying had only been delivered by Calor about an hour previously so I was lucky they had it. 

[frangar]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I bought a 3.9kg refill in the village shop in Napton the other day. The woman selling is commented (unprompted) they hadn't had any 3.9kg refills for ages and the one I was buying had only been delivered by Calor about an hour previously so I was lucky they had it. 

Strange innit. The marina gets stock direct from calor and have supply of all sizes. 

[Tim Lewis]

https://www.calor.co.uk/news-and-views/go-outdoors-return-scheme?fbclid=IwAR3v3hy2rldO22jCcaIO3t2Ko2GeDoW8IjAmH-pj1rKqPZfBhmN_cAspzI0