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Boat prices with moorings (London)


mda

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Hi all,

 

I have been lurking for years, been to the Crick Boat Show etc. but am now in the position to buy my first liveaboard boat (in west London).

 

There are a few boats with moorings that I am considering (on the Thames near Richmond) and I am wondering about how moorings affect the value of boats. Obviously the boat's value itself will deteriorate over time, but does the portion that you pay for the "privilege" of it coming with a mooring also devalue or does it go up?

 

I have seen moorings without boats that have very reasonable monthly fees, but timing the buying of a cheaper boat and getting the mooring is unlikely.

 

I guess I'm asking, does paying over the value of a boat because of the mooring that comes with it become worthwhile, as later on when you sell your boat with the mooring that extra still retains its value even when the boat doesn't?

 

Thanks

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Does the owner of the moorings the boat is on confirm the moorings are transferrable?

Have you evidence of tenants' rights, or is it a yearly renewable contract, worse still is it an agreement that can be terminated by either side with short notice?

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I am sure that there are many different situations, especially on rivers which have different rules, but gthis is my understanding of the moorings situation in London. Generally speaking when you buy a boat with a mooring you are only buying the "right to rent" a mooring - in theory you don't own any "equity" per se other than the boat and you can lose this right very easily without compensation.

 

You can change your own boat if you are renting a mooring, but you normally cannot transfer your mooring to someone else. You cant sell your right to rent the mooring so on paper this roght is valueless. The loophole is that you can sell your boat that happens to have a mooring.

 

I have seen boats that are literally underwater fetching 50k because they are on a desirable mooring.

 

In practice yes the value of the "privilege" of having a mooring often goes up. So if everything stays the same, a 100k boat+mooring might fetch >100k next year. But whether or not the rules or the situation will remain the same by the time you sell is a gamble.

 

It is my considered opinion that buying a boat or "the right to rent" a mooring, or both, should not be done as an investment. The risks are high and any reward will be low (and possibly negative).

 

I might be wrong about all this in which case someone will be along soon to correct me, but this is my understanding of the situation.

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The Thames "near Richmond" is tidal and I don't recall many moorings against the banks or floating pontoons but a fair number on trots some way out into the river. Plus there are some marina type moorings but I saw none near Richmond when I used Brentford to go on or off the Thames.

 

Usually the owner of adjacent land own the river bed and thus mooring rights to the centre of the river and in that area it might be the Local Authority. You need to find out who owns the mooring and check its status with them. In that area there is/was a notorious owner and renter out of slum boats used for multiple occupation and recently he has been "feeling the heat" so he may be moving into other dodgy businesses. Take great care with this.

 

I would not want to live-aboard on the tidal Thames unless on a proper floating pontoon or in a marina.

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Hilary Pereira has lived on a boat at Richmond for some 40 years and wrote about practicalities of buying houseboats for the River Thames Society website www.riverthamessociety.org.uk but I'm not sure if it is possible for a non-member to access it. There is also information on the DBA site www.barges.org

 

Trots are mid-stream moorings where the craft is anchored at each end rather than swinging with wind and tide.

 

Tam

 

Edited by Tam & Di
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13 hours ago, mda said:

There are a few boats with moorings that I am considering (on the Thames near Richmond) and I am wondering about how moorings affect the value of boats.

 

I have to say I'm with Tony's warning on this. I don't know where you've seen 'a few boats with moorings near Richmond' for sale, but it sounds improbable. One may come up from time to time, but 'a few' is extremely improbable, and the price would be sky high if they truly have a bona fide mooring. There have been attempts to set up sightly dodgy B&B boats, but the local Authorities are hot on action to remove them.

 

Tam

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13 hours ago, mda said:

I have seen moorings without boats that have very reasonable monthly fees, but timing the buying of a cheaper boat and getting the mooring is unlikely.

 

 

In times of shortage of moorings it has always been the practice you find, buy / rent your mooring first, then find your boat.

You may be paying for a mooring you are not using for a couple of months, but that is way better than buying a boat and then finding there is nowhere to moor it.

 

Residential moorings (for rent) do come up for auction in London and will generally make ~£12,000 - £15,000 per annum, and, it is usually a 3-year contract.

 

Edit : so few words and so many typos.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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On 14/04/2021 at 07:58, Tony Brooks said:

The Thames "near Richmond" is tidal and I don't recall many moorings against the banks or floating pontoons but a fair number on trots some way out into the river. Plus there are some marina type moorings but I saw none near Richmond when I used Brentford to go on or off the Thames.

 

I should have been clearer they are on the other side of the Teddington Lock near Kingston, I just get used to saying Richmond as I live right near the lock.

On 13/04/2021 at 20:47, sueb said:

What security do you get with the mooring if any? Unless you are buying a freehold mooring I would be very wary.

 

I will discuss this at the viewings and find out. Thanks.

On 13/04/2021 at 21:08, zenataomm said:

Does the owner of the moorings the boat is on confirm the moorings are transferrable?

Have you evidence of tenants' rights, or is it a yearly renewable contract, worse still is it an agreement that can be terminated by either side with short notice?

 

The boats are advertised on behalf of the Marina(s) as far as I can tell. But I will find out at the viewings. Thank you.

Edited by mda
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IIRC there were some very expensive "boats that are really flats" moored very near Kingston Bridge that did not have any legal right to be there. Be carefull.

 

Are you however referring to the Marina near Surbiton?

Edited by mark99
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Are you referring to the barges moored upstream of the bridge on the north/west bank just downstream of the EA public moorings? Are you sure they have no legal right to be there? I might be wrong but I thought they were private moorings? There are also some private moorings opposite that I assumed were legal too.

Edited by blackrose
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31 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Are you referring to the barges moored upstream of the bridge on the north/west bank just downstream of the EA public moorings? Are you sure they have no legal right to be there? I might be wrong but I thought they were private moorings? There are also some private moorings opposite that I assumed were legal too.

 

 

Maybe adding even more confusion, but wasn't this the area that was 'recently' involved in a court case where someone had sold a boat (£1 million+) as being 'with a residential mooring' and it turned out that the council said the moorings were not residential and were even in dispute about mooring being allowed ?

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On 15/04/2021 at 18:21, Tam & Di said:

Presumably you're not viewing one of these   ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35871064

 

No.Definitelyy not. :-)

11 hours ago, blackrose said:

Are you referring to the barges moored upstream of the bridge on the north/west bank just downstream of the EA public moorings? Are you sure they have no legal right to be there? I might be wrong but I thought they were private moorings? There are also some private moorings opposite that I assumed were legal too.

 

No - Marinas in Surbiton / Thames Ditton.

On 15/04/2021 at 18:58, mark99 said:

IIRC there were some very expensive "boats that are really flats" moored very near Kingston Bridge that did not have any legal right to be there. Be carefull.

 

Are you however referring to the Marina near Surbiton?

 

Yes. Surbiton and Thames Ditton.

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I guess I'm wondering what type of boats you're looking at. Narrowboats, wide beams, Dutch barges, steel cruisers, ... ? And how likely is it that you will want to cruise that boat to places new. Boats do have a pointy end for a reason. And the fact that they can be a comfortable, moveable feast is one of their great attractions.

 

Paying a premium on a boat for the right to rent and enjoy its mooring will only work financially if you can retain that mooring over the long term ... and you don't leave it. Of course the minute you leave that mooring that premium you paid is lost forever. And you can pay considerably over the odds for moored boats in and around London.

 

So, will you want to take that barge or cruiser over to the continent after a few years exploring the Thames? Or take your narrowboat to York? Or relocate that wide beam to a nice, liveable spot in Lechlade? Or even just go cruising for a year? 

 

People live on boats in lots of different ways. I think you need to be fairly sure you will remain static (or only do it for a couple of years) to go down this route. 

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19 minutes ago, Jim Batty said:

Paying a premium on a boat for the right to rent and enjoy its mooring will only work financially if you can retain that mooring over the long term ... and you don't leave it. 

 

I think you need to be fairly sure you will remain static (or only do it for a couple of years) to go down this route. 

 

Hi Jim.

 

Thank you for the reply. All the questions in your reply you asked are part of what I am trying to decide. I can bide my time so I want to see as many boats / moorings and compare mooring fees etc. at the moment.

 

I have a good job in the area. The dream though is at some point to have a narrowboat I guess, Tug style to allow cruising over the summer, or later for longer - but this due to my job is further in the future. The boat Emily that won at Crick and is now up for sale (at a ridiculously high price) is close to my dream boat I guess eventually. 

 

I say narrowboat so I could get to Peterborough for example, which is not accessible from the south in a Widebeam. Also, dutch barge style boats would have height issues too. Aesthetically I don't lust after a widebeam - but for a few years a widebeam would be more comfortable to live on at first and then downsize later perhaps when leaving the mooring. Also these are more available and the mooring costs are the same buy length. 

 

It is whether selling the same boat, with the mooring would retain a bunch of value.

 

I cannot afford as a single person in this area to get a mortgage right now, but luckily have enough to outright buy a boat and pay more upfront for the mooring. The cost of the mooring's ongoing fees will be the dealbreaker money wise.

 

Regarding the quote above - I am a bit confused as you said it would be worthwhile long term but then later say a couple of years. Can you explain and elaborate of this bit please?

 

Thanks again.

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Hi MDA

 

I meant that if you have some kind of agreement that reasonably guarantees your mooring for many years, then the premium paid on the boat might be worth it -- all things being equal and it's what you want. If the mooring's not that secure, and a year or two down the road the owner decides she doesn't like the cut of your jib and you're out, then that's not financially sound.

 

On the second quote, if you think from the beginning that you'll only live aboard for two or three years then move back on land (for whatever reasons: after having saved up a deposit for a London flat; there's likely to be a different adventure ahead;  ...), then you could probably sell the boat (and mooring) for the premium price you paid. In this scenario there's less worry about whether you might lose the mooring (and the premium ££ paid on the boat), and less worry about 'What if I want to leave the mooring and go cruising' (and thereby lose the premium ££ paid on the boat). That's what I meant.

 

For the most part we enjoy cruising around and waking up in different places, spending a lot of time in rural spots, deciding on an ad hoc basis to stay longer here and less time there,  sometimes grabbing a winter mooring, other times cruising through the starkly beautiful and quiet winter. All this with balancing some commuting to part-time work ... that's become a heck of a lot more home-working during Covid. I spent two years commuting from the wilds of the Eastern K&A into King's Cross -- combining bicycle, train and underground. (I was up for it then, but can't say I'd do it today!) So I'm wary of paying over the odds for a boat ... only to be 'trapped' in one place. But many, many people enjoy living afloat in one place. Plugged in, handy car beside the boat, family just down the road, cool shed to keep stuff in. You just need to make sure you're one of those people! No pressure then, eh?

 

When we were first looking for a boat we rang up John Currer (in Iver) about a boat that we liked the look of with a mooring on the Thames just outside Windsor. The minute we said we didn't really want a permanent mooring, he refused to show it to us. He said this was because we'd lose so much money on the boat taking it away it would be foolish to waste our time.

 

Anyway, you sound like you are looking closely at all aspects of this lifestyle and I'm sure you'll figure it out. 

 

 

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Interesting post for the following reasons which I'm sure other have come across.  If you search on apollo then its usual to find the most expensive boats are listed are with "London moorings". For example, I found a very nice boat which if purchased in the midlands (or without a mooring) would have a value of £50k, the advertised price with its London mooring was £105k. The mooring fees were listed at £6k per year. So if I buy and then take my £50k boat back up to the midlands or wherever, can I then sell the empty mooring spot for £55k? I suspect not. In any marina or private canal side moorings outside of London, I have never seen value added to a boat sale price because it has a mooring (with the exception of when there is freehold land attached). The mooring is always controlled (owned) by the owners of the marina/land etc. and the boat owners have no rights to sell/transfer the mooring. In London the complete opposite seems to be true!

Regarding my purchase, my only option it seems is to pay the purchase price and take over the mooring, then buy a very inexpensive boat of the same length and swop the boat over, take my new boat away and then re-advertise the boat with its "London mooring" for the same inflated price.  A lot of hassle but the only way I can see of buying a "London moored"  boat without making a large loss. 

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8 minutes ago, BrandyMark said:

Interesting post for the following reasons which I'm sure other have come across.  If you search on apollo then its usual to find the most expensive boats are listed are with "London moorings". For example, I found a very nice boat which if purchased in the midlands (or without a mooring) would have a value of £50k, the advertised price with its London mooring was £105k. The mooring fees were listed at £6k per year. So if I buy and then take my £50k boat back up to the midlands or wherever, can I then sell the empty mooring spot for £55k? I suspect not. In any marina or private canal side moorings outside of London, I have never seen value added to a boat sale price because it has a mooring (with the exception of when there is freehold land attached). The mooring is always controlled (owned) by the owners of the marina/land etc. and the boat owners have no rights to sell/transfer the mooring. In London the complete opposite seems to be true!

Regarding my purchase, my only option it seems is to pay the purchase price and take over the mooring, then buy a very inexpensive boat of the same length and swop the boat over, take my new boat away and then re-advertise the boat with its "London mooring" for the same inflated price.  A lot of hassle but the only way I can see of buying a "London moored"  boat without making a large loss. 

Try taking your £50K boat from the midlands and find a mooring in London for it for £6K a year. You are paying someone to open the door for you, same as an introduction fee.

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12 minutes ago, BrandyMark said:

So if I buy and then take my £50k boat back up to the midlands or wherever, can I then sell the empty mooring spot for £55k?

 

The boat moorings in Battlebridge Basin, were set up in the late 80s or early 90s with 99 year leases. They even had trouble selling the last few at the time! Those moorings can definitely be traded, and I assume that even with 30 years of the lease gone they now probably fetch a good price.

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