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Constant priming required


Mikexx

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Just had a look at this vid clip on bleeding the BMC 1500:

 

I've bled a lot of different small and bid donkeys over the years, but this type is a bit of a PITA, as there are 2 screws before the injectors need to be cracked off, assuming the clip is correct. Normally it's only one, or in some cases you do not need to crack the injectors, just one pump vent screw. Pity the MG folks didn't develop a self bleeding version, but it is what it is, so my question for the technically minded is this one, can you fit an inline 12v fuel feed pump and just crack the injectors ???

 

Also does it really need the injectors cracked if the 2 screw vents are used ?? I can remember a number of cases where the chap trying to start a donkey kept playing around cracking injectors, when it was not required.

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I have no looked at the video because the first image is enough to question the producer.

 

There are two bleed screws on the hydraulic DPA pump. One on the side of the cylindrical section and one right on top of the governor housing/turret on the pump. The manual says use both bleed screws but long experience of what can happen lead me to advise that ordinary boaters only  use the one on the side of the pump and only touch the one on the turret if there is no other way to gett it running.

 

This is on two counts. The turret screw is part of the idle stabilisation damper adjustment and I have seen this upset too many times by people who are less mechanically aware. Like wise the whole set of nuts and screws on the turret are often only glued into the turret and I have seen this torn out by a moment of ham ham-fistedness.

 

It is important when bleeding the filter and the pump body screw to keep priming for at least 30 seconds after you think all the air is out of the fuel. This is vital for the pump body because air can get trapped in the pipes so although you think it is bled the engine will not start or starts and then stops.

 

Finally, if you really cant get it to start loosen/remove the return pipe to the filter (the one form the pump closest to the engine block), direct into a container or wad with rag, and spin on the starter. This may shift any stubborn air in the pump and often the engine starts while d0ing this.

 

Bleed order; large     hexagon on top of fuel filter > 8mm head on side of the pump > from loose large unions on injectors with engine spinning on starter.

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Tony, I think it would be useful to comment on the video directly, these are my comments.

 

1) I would bleed the input side of the fuel filter first to remove air first, rather than just output side.

2) He undoes the damper screw, which I would only use as a last resort, and in my case I would have to re-adjust damping.

 

The video is very dark, and only the motions are shown, not a live priming.

I've given up trying to undo the big hex nut for being overtightened in the past and just use the screw on the side of the pump body.

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7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have no looked at the video because the first image is enough to question the producer.

 

There are two bleed screws on the hydraulic DPA pump. One on the side of the cylindrical section and one right on top of the governor housing/turret on the pump. The manual says use both bleed screws but long experience of what can happen lead me to advise that ordinary boaters only  use the one on the side of the pump and only touch the one on the turret if there is no other way to gett it running.

 

This is on two counts. The turret screw is part of the idle stabilisation damper adjustment and I have seen this upset too many times by people who are less mechanically aware. Like wise the whole set of nuts and screws on the turret are often only glued into the turret and I have seen this torn out by a moment of ham ham-fistedness.

 

It is important when bleeding the filter and the pump body screw to keep priming for at least 30 seconds after you think all the air is out of the fuel. This is vital for the pump body because air can get trapped in the pipes so although you think it is bled the engine will not start or starts and then stops.

 

Finally, if you really cant get it to start loosen/remove the return pipe to the filter (the one form the pump closest to the engine block), direct into a container or wad with rag, and spin on the starter. This may shift any stubborn air in the pump and often the engine starts while d0ing this.

 

Bleed order; large     hexagon on top of fuel filter > 8mm head on side of the pump > from loose large unions on injectors with engine spinning on starter.

Thanks, great reply and it confirms what I thought might be the case, that the chap in the clip was suffering from screwitis, a well known but untreatable condition that results in the bleeder unscrewing everything!

 

So I will write in my engine notes the following:

 

1/ Bleed the secondary fuel filter using the top nut.

 

2/ Bleed the 8mm head on the side of the HP pump.

 

3/ Loosen large fuel injector unions, spin with starter and tighten up.

 

4/ If that fails, bleed fuel return line.

 

NOTE: Keep pumping for 30 seconds after fuel flow is visible, (Very important for HP pump).

 

That procedure is fairly common to other small diesels, although engines like the Yanmar series do not require the injectors to be bled, and a few like the Vetus series self bleed once the fuel filter has been primed. Oddly enough I like the Vetus Dutch donkeys as the one in my last yacht, a Steel Van Der Stadt 34, never let me down, BUT I crossed them off the list cos they are painted Yellow, and I don't want any visitors referring to my donkey as, "The yellow peril". The less said about modern Yanmars the better, as the 2GM in my first yacht suffered 3 serious failures and an oil leak.

 

PS: I would point out that the engine in the clip has been well looked after, and looks nearly as good as my Ferrari red version will in about another month, as it might take that long to remove some of the black furnace paint, as it has some kind of blue primer underneath that is harder to remove than the black stuff. No idea why the owner did not use a blue top coat. He might have been black and white colour blind!

 

 

Edited by TNLI
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On 13/11/2021 at 07:21, Tony Brooks said:

I have no looked at the video because the first image is enough to question the producer.

 

There are two bleed screws on the hydraulic DPA pump. One on the side of the cylindrical section and one right on top of the governor housing/turret on the pump. The manual says use both bleed screws but long experience of what can happen lead me to advise that ordinary boaters only  use the one on the side of the pump and only touch the one on the turret if there is no other way to gett it running.

 

This is on two counts. The turret screw is part of the idle stabilisation damper adjustment and I have seen this upset too many times by people who are less mechanically aware. Like wise the whole set of nuts and screws on the turret are often only glued into the turret and I have seen this torn out by a moment of ham ham-fistedness.

 

It is important when bleeding the filter and the pump body screw to keep priming for at least 30 seconds after you think all the air is out of the fuel. This is vital for the pump body because air can get trapped in the pipes so although you think it is bled the engine will not start or starts and then stops.

 

Finally, if you really cant get it to start loosen/remove the return pipe to the filter (the one form the pump closest to the engine block), direct into a container or wad with rag, and spin on the starter. This may shift any stubborn air in the pump and often the engine starts while d0ing this.

 

Bleed order; large     hexagon on top of fuel filter > 8mm head on side of the pump > from loose large unions on injectors with engine spinning on starter.

 

It's odd isn't it - we were told by someone who looked after BMC 1.5 in narrowboats to undo the return union on the top of the engine mounted Fuel filter and manually prime until fuel comes from that. Then close that and crack open all 4 injector fuel connectors (the fuel return banjos).

Crank the engine on the starter until fuel starts to ooze from the injectors and close off one at a time.

 

I guess he didn't like touching the injector pump, and I have to say that in the 35 years we've had the boat we've only had to bleed it three or four times and the method we were told has worked fine each time.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

It's odd isn't it - we were told by someone who looked after BMC 1.5 in narrowboats to undo the return union on the top of the engine mounted Fuel filter and manually prime until fuel comes from that. Then close that and crack open all 4 injector fuel connectors (the fuel return banjos).

Crank the engine on the starter until fuel starts to ooze from the injectors and close off one at a time.

 

I guess he didn't like touching the injector pump, and I have to say that in the 35 years we've had the boat we've only had to bleed it three or four times and the method we were told has worked fine each time.

 

 

 

I think that in most cases that method would work - eventually. it is only going straight to what I suggests if there is  a problem using the conventional way. What I don't like about it is that it does not help identify if you have a fuel blockage like in the strainer that is under the big nut at the injector pump inlet union.

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3 hours ago, StephenA said:

 

It's odd isn't it - we were told by someone who looked after BMC 1.5 in narrowboats to undo the return union on the top of the engine mounted Fuel filter and manually prime until fuel comes from that. Then close that and crack open all 4 injector fuel connectors (the fuel return banjos).

Crank the engine on the starter until fuel starts to ooze from the injectors and close off one at a time.

 

I guess he didn't like touching the injector pump, and I have to say that in the 35 years we've had the boat we've only had to bleed it three or four times and the method we were told has worked fine each time.

 

 

Great, now things are really getting confusing, so my checklist should now say, bleed HP if required !! It starting to sound like a, "Suck it and see", procedure. 

 

So I will write in my engine notes the following:

 

1/ Bleed the secondary fuel filter using the top nut.

 

2/ Bleed the 8mm head on the side of the HP pump, IF required.

 

3/ Loosen large fuel injector RETURNS, or unions, and then spin with starter, then tighten up.

 

4/ If that fails, bleed fuel return line.

 

NOTE: Keep pumping for 30 seconds after fuel flow is visible, (Very important for HP pump), IF you do not have a fuel feed pump.

 

 

 

Any non regular, fitted an ASAP or other 12v LP fuel delivery/primer pump. I'm only going to ask Santa Claus to pass by ASAP if I can find an inline flow rate cut out, like wot my washing machine has. That way if the fuel pipe falls off the secondary fuel filter, or the pipe to the HP fuel pump cracks, the pump switches off. That avoids the need to be too concerned about fuel leaks when out for the count, or suffering from a self inflicted liquid injury. Those pumps can sometimes be used to shut off the fuel flow when a mercury relay switch, like wot my old Volvo and nearly all modern petrol cars have fitted, cuts off the fuel pump. 

  Alas it might need to be a non self priming pump to kill the fuel flow, and the pumps from ASAP might be self priming. Nothing in their description, so will send a message and look for mercury kill switches. 

Edited by TNLI
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 Ive noted......a complete run out of fuel stop ,and the filter element aerates the pump primed fuel,and the tiny bleed hole (partially blocked by a tiny steel ball) takes ages to vent .....quite often the pump is correctly bled,only to have air from the filter stop the motor.............Another thing Ive noted ,is all these DPA pumps are quite old,and changes in fuel chemistry have caused the rubber O ring between ally body and steel head to develop a suction airleak......very tiny,often only when the engine sits for weeks.

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5 hours ago, john.k said:

 Ive noted......a complete run out of fuel stop ,and the filter element aerates the pump primed fuel,and the tiny bleed hole (partially blocked by a tiny steel ball) takes ages to vent .....quite often the pump is correctly bled,only to have air from the filter stop the motor.............Another thing Ive noted ,is all these DPA pumps are quite old,and changes in fuel chemistry have caused the rubber O ring between ally body and steel head to develop a suction airleak......very tiny,often only when the engine sits for weeks.

Thanks, although the HP and LP wobble pump probably need replacing with new or reconditioned units every 5 years or so. Otherwise it seems you finish up with fuel contaminating the engine oil in the first case and a non performing wobbler in the second. 

 

One swift question about my recently recon HP fuel pump, is that there are 4 ends of a machine screw visible, and I've no idea what they are supposed to be for, so anyone used them for something ??

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9 hours ago, TNLI said:

Great, now things are really getting confusing, so my checklist should now say, bleed HP if required !! It starting to sound like a, "Suck it and see", procedure. 

 

So I will write in my engine notes the following:

 

1/ Bleed the secondary fuel filter using the top nut.

 

2/ Bleed the 8mm head on the side of the HP pump, IF required.

 

3/ Loosen large fuel injector RETURNS, or unions, and then spin with starter, then tighten up.

 

4/ If that fails, bleed fuel return line.

 

NOTE: Keep pumping for 30 seconds after fuel flow is visible, (Very important for HP pump), IF you do not have a fuel feed pump.

 

 

 

Any non regular, fitted an ASAP or other 12v LP fuel delivery/primer pump. I'm only going to ask Santa Claus to pass by ASAP if I can find an inline flow rate cut out, like wot my washing machine has. That way if the fuel pipe falls off the secondary fuel filter, or the pipe to the HP fuel pump cracks, the pump switches off. That avoids the need to be too concerned about fuel leaks when out for the count, or suffering from a self inflicted liquid injury. Those pumps can sometimes be used to shut off the fuel flow when a mercury relay switch, like wot my old Volvo and nearly all modern petrol cars have fitted, cuts off the fuel pump. 

  Alas it might need to be a non self priming pump to kill the fuel flow, and the pumps from ASAP might be self priming. Nothing in their description, so will send a message and look for mercury kill switches. 

 

1. As far as I know the electric fuel pumps all self prime as long as the valves are in good condition and the lift is not too high.

 

2. I know of no readily available electric fuel pumps that monitor their maximum flow rate and turn themselves off if it is above a certain level.

 

3. Bleeding the fuel system is in no way  suck it and see, just follow the procedure in the manual but if you touch the governer bleed screw be delicate.

 

4. The injector RETURN s are the run of small banjos and pipe running along the top of the inecyots and connected bback to the filter an dfuel tank. Mess with these as long as you like but unless the injectors are badly worn you will never bleed the high pressure feeed pipes that way. Loosen the large feed nuts on he pipes that run between pump and injectors at the injectorend. Then spin until fuel drips or spits out.

 

2 hours ago, TNLI said:

Thanks, although the HP and LP wobble pump probably need replacing with new or reconditioned units every 5 years or so. Otherwise it seems you finish up with fuel contaminating the engine oil in the first case and a non performing wobbler in the second. 

 

One swift question about my recently recon HP fuel pump, is that there are 4 ends of a machine screw visible, and I've no idea what they are supposed to be for, so anyone used them for something ??

 

Plaese tell us allwhat this "wobble pump is". You should have a reiprocating diaphragm lift pump but nothing wobbles in it. A compoud arm rockes anda diaphragm goes down and up when working. The only pumps I know with wobble in their title are wobbble plate hydraulic pumps usd in hydraulic system.

 

One can't be positive about your four ends of machine screws without an idea where they are located or a photo but I think they are a standard feature of many DPA pumps and are used in some applicatons to secure a large "plate" that is formed to mount the anchors for the stop and throttle cable outers. If you do not have one you can fabricte a pair from steel strip it it is needed.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

 

4. The injector RETURN s are the run of small banjos and pipe running along the top of the inecyots and connected bback to the filter an dfuel tank. Mess with these as long as you like but unless the injectors are badly worn you will never bleed the high pressure feeed pipes that way. Loosen the large feed nuts on he pipes that run between pump and injectors at the injectorend. Then spin until fuel drips or spits out.

 

 

 

Quite right - brain cramp on my part.

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16 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

Quite right - brain cramp on my part.

 

I am all but certain you know exactly what needs doing, even if you do put it down wrong, unlike TNLI who seems to me to be blundering about with little specific knowledge and putting the cart before the horse.

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12 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am all but certain you know exactly what needs doing, even if you do put it down wrong, unlike TNLI who seems to me to be blundering about with little specific knowledge and putting the cart before the horse.

 

Just got an interesting reply from ASAP about their electric pumps, so I will reverse my horse and cart and install an electric feed pump to simplify the priming game:

 

Good morning.
The following would be able to allow the flow of fuel through the pump whilst inactive. Most other units will have a check valve internally, that prevents the backflow of fluid, but also would put too much resistance on the fuel in order to supply it without the pump being active.
https://www.asap-supplies.com/search?query=asap+electrical+fuel+pump
Kind regards.

Shaun Wade
sales@asap-supplies.com
01502 716993
ASAP Supplies

 

2nd message:

Unfortunately, we do not do the internal torsional vibration dampers. I have had a look at what the supplier has available, and this isn't something they offer at all.
So on this occasion, we wouldn't be able to help I'm afraid.
Kind regards.

Shaun Wade
sales@asap-supplies.com
01502 716993
ASAP Supplies

 

 

No need for a flow stop or fuel pressure cut out sensor if the electric pump can be switched off after priming. Those units are not in the pump, they are an add on. Nearly all washing machines have a flood check valve to prevent a water feed hose failure.

 

I'm still trying to find a suitable roll over fuel shut off valve, although the main reason is that using Mercury tilt switch or similar key words, results in far too many Mercury outboard results! That cut out switch is very important in offshore sailing or motoring, as the donkey does not like a sudden loss of oil pressure that occurs when the oil pump feed starts to suck air. No idea if the BMC 1500 can run dry in oil feed terms for more than a few minutes.

 

No sign of the HP fuel plump plate, so I will add it to the list of MIA engine parts.

 

ASAP also replied that they do not stock and can not obtain the infamous end of crank damper bearing. So does anyone know who makes them, and which companies or dealers can supply a new crankshaft.

 

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In fact the rubber crank pulley dampers can be repaired ,but it isnt cheap,even if the repairer has a set of moulds for the job..........recent ones Ive had done were between $600 and $1000.......if its a viscous damper ,then an OEM spare will be more than that.

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14 hours ago, john.k said:

In fact the rubber crank pulley dampers can be repaired ,but it isnt cheap,even if the repairer has a set of moulds for the job..........recent ones Ive had done were between $600 and $1000.......if its a viscous damper ,then an OEM spare will be more than that.

Thanks for the reply, just what I needed, more bad financial news!

 

My old donkey might have the all time BMC age record, so I'm hoping that it does not have a damper of any kind fitted, as I understand from a post from TB, that not all 1500's have damper bearings.

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As far as I know all 1.5Ds had crankshaft dampers fitted but as long as the rubber is swelling out of the pulley by less than a mm or so, when poked with a screwdriver it still feels hard and  as long as it is not contaminated by oil or fuel I think it will be OK.

 

I think that the very old two bolt inertia starter version might not have used a damper but yours is not one of those.

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3 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

 

My old donkey might have the all time BMC age record, so I'm hoping that it does not have a damper of any kind fitted, as I understand from a post from TB, that not all 1500's have damper bearings.

 

I'll check our S/N when I'm up this coming weekend winterising the boat

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

As far as I know all 1.5Ds had crankshaft dampers fitted but as long as the rubber is swelling out of the pulley by less than a mm or so, when poked with a screwdriver it still feels hard and  as long as it is not contaminated by oil or fuel I think it will be OK.

 

I think that the very old two bolt inertia starter version might not have used a damper but yours is not one of those.

 

I have to say I can't say I've noticed if ours does or not - I can't imagine it doesn't but I've never looked at the crank pulley that closely.

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A tiny motor with a short stiff crank does not need a damper when run well below the maximum allowable revs.....The damper was used to make the motor smoother in a car,not because of any crankshaft breakage problem.......However ,if the rubber is an integral part of the front pulley,and you need the belt drive ...........

Edited by john.k
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20 hours ago, john.k said:

In fact the rubber crank pulley dampers can be repaired ,but it isnt cheap,even if the repairer has a set of moulds for the job..........recent ones Ive had done were between $600 and $1000.......if its a viscous damper ,then an OEM spare will be more than that.

Thanks for the reply, and can you confirm that there are 2 types of crank dampers, and that no one makes a non viscous dampers ?? Also when you say OEM, (Original Equipment Manufacturer), which company do you mean, as I have not found a UK based company that makes that part. 

 

Interesting to hear from a BMC fan from down under, although I never visited Brisbane, I've seen Australia in some detail both from above and along the coast from Cairns to Darwin, (Day sailing the inside passage). Great continent to fly around at low level for Alan Bonds Swan Lager tour from Sydney to Perth and back in his Skyship 600. Filming the Americas/Australia's cup races was great fun. Some of the ground support team had such a good time they never left, and are still living there.

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9 hours ago, john.k said:

A tiny motor with a short stiff crank does not need a damper when run well below the maximum allowable revs.....The damper was used to make the motor smoother in a car,not because of any crankshaft breakage problem.......However ,if the rubber is an integral part of the front pulley,and you need the belt drive ...........

.

At the time the 1500 CC petrol engine used a riveted pressed steel front pulley, only the1.5D used a damper pulley. Anyway it is not a stiff crank, it is thee bearing crank. I also know that an engine newly fitted with a front pulley that had been put in decarbonising fluid and the had the swollen rubber trimmed from the pulley broke its crank within three hours running. The clue is n the name - torsional oscillation damper. It is undampened torsional oscillations that snaps the crank.

 

At the time the 1500 CC petrol engine used a riveted pressed steel front pulley, only the1.5D used a damper pulley. Anyway it is not a stiff crank, it is thee bearing crank. I also recall that I think i was told about some extra work that was done on 1.5D ranks during production to strengthen them but I can't recall exactly what it was supposed to be.

 

Such advice as yours could be very expensive for  other 1.5 owners.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

.

At the time the 1500 CC petrol engine used a riveted pressed steel front pulley, only the1.5D used a damper pulley. Anyway it is not a stiff crank, it is thee bearing crank. I also know that an engine newly fitted with a front pulley that had been put in decarbonising fluid and the had the swollen rubber trimmed from the pulley broke its crank within three hours running. The clue is n the name - torsional oscillation damper. It is undampened torsional oscillations that snaps the crank.

 

At the time the 1500 CC petrol engine used a riveted pressed steel front pulley, only the1.5D used a damper pulley. Anyway it is not a stiff crank, it is thee bearing crank. I also recall that I think i was told about some extra work that was done on 1.5D ranks during production to strengthen them but I can't recall exactly what it was supposed to be.

 

Such advice as yours could be very expensive for  other 1.5 owners.

 

 

Yep, agree with Tony, as the first thing I did when I got interested in buying an abused BMC 1500 was look up a list of main block failure statistics, and it only listed 2 items, one was the HP fuel pump seals, AND the crankshaft itself. Most engine types have a much longer list, so it was obviously a good tough old engine type, BUT I did realise that I need to pay extra attention to what exactly is the issue, and what to check to make sure I don't finish up with a total write off of a great old donkey. 

 

It seems that the crank fails for a variety of reasons, probably including the following:

 

1/ The crank that snapped was a far Eastern copy that a so called expert had fitted many moons ago. It had not been checked before it was installed with a Magnavox, (Wrong spellin ?), or X ray machine and had pre existing flaws. Using a cheap dye is not good enough to find tiny cracks etc.

 

2/ Repeated overheating incidents.

 

3/ Badly worn main bearings, and an operator who thinks they will be OK for another ten years or so, as it's normal for his donkey to rattle after start. Another poor engine oil or filter issue.

 

4/ Repeated use of Easy start in winter, cos 20W50, defective glow plugs and an Iffy battery do make cold starts interesting. Fit a heat pad etc.

 

5/ Damaged or degraded Torsional Oscillation Dampers.

 

6/ 40 or 50 years of normal wear and tear resulting in a crank that is out of limits. If the owner operators paid more attention to the Zinc, (DZZP), content of the oil and its viscosity after fuel contamination, it might be good for 10 years plus.

 

Alas the file I looked at did not say why the cranks can break, so that list is not in order. Most used oil analysis labs keep records of main block failures, in terms of their list UOA. That nearly always shows up high Lead and Iron as a main bearing starts to show signs of excessive wear, BUT a simple UOA will not detect developing cracks in a crankshaft. Oddly enough you can detect a tiny developing crack in a head gasket, but that's a very different situation. Often such small HG failures can be prevented with the use of a coolant additive. 

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I would imagine the cranks break because they were designed for a petrol engine ,and used in a diesel..........none of the Perkins fours have dampers,including the small 3 bearing 4000rpm 4/99, 4/107,4/108

Edited by john.k
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1 hour ago, john.k said:

I would imagine the cranks break because they were designed for a petrol engine ,and used in a diesel..........none of the Perkins fours have dampers,including the small 3 bearing 4000rpm 4/99, 4/107,4/108

 

You are almost certainly correct and, as I said, I understood steps were taken to toughen the crank when used in the diesel. I think it involved using high pressure rollers at each end of the journals and possibly a combination of heat/gas treating to toughen the outer surface.  Each engine type needs treating on it is own, by and large you can not say that something one design uses ifs in any way applicable to another design. I don't think that the diesel conversion of the OHV Ford four cylinder used a damper either but I have not seen enough of them to be sure.

 

You are correct that when dampers are used on petrol engines it is usually to to with smooth running but not in the case of the 1.5D.

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  • 2 months later...

How many folks have a fuel return line fitted to their fuel tank fitted. The leak off rail from the pre abused engine I purchased was connected to a fuel return line, although the diagram in the operators manual just shows it connected to the fuel vent nut on top of the engine CAV filter ??

  I'm wondering if this would effect how easy the system is to bleed.

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