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Survey needed to be done.


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26 minutes ago, MrsM said:

Excellent, I'm really pleased you are taking someone with you. Can I suggest that you put all your questions in an email before then so that you have a written record? Hopefully everything will go smoothly but it won't hurt to have things in writing (and in the worst case might help against dishonesty and trickiness). Have you looked at your pre-purchase contract? Are you happy to share some of the details here? I'm still concerned that Whilton are only interested in rectifying BSS work. The BSS is nothing like an MOT for a car and a boat can be in a poor state but still have a BSS pass.

 

 

 

If the corrosion is particularly bad it may even fall within the scope of the Bsc, as a hole (opening) that close to the chimney. A bit of ingenuity by the surveyor wouldn't go amiss!

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I am not a boater so cant help you @Tanmim H but all the best...

and so nice to see the forum members helping a newbie step by step...(considering we try to rip each other apart in other threads) I just wish you were here before you put the deposit.

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9 minutes ago, Tanmim H said:

I see.

I will share it with you in a private message if that's okay.

I have not written any questions down?

I don't know exactly what to write but I know I need to ask  who owns the boat?

I am going to write down what I can remember from everyone's suggested here.

By all means but I am only a newbie boater too and there are much wiser, more experienced heads to help you. X

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22 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'm not sure what time you're going on Friday, but if you need a boater to go with you and your brother I'm free on Friday afternoon and I'm only 25 mins away from Whilton. I've sent you a PM.

 

This is a free service! ☺️

How lovely of you 🥰

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3 minutes ago, MrsM said:

How lovely of you 🥰

 

In no way detracting from Blackrose's kind offer but often you will find a more experienced member offers to visit and help people with problems, especillly new boaters.

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14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

In no way detracting from Blackrose's kind offer but often you will find a more experienced member offers to visit and help people with problems, especillly new boaters.

And that warms the cockles. What a great bunch!

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I am now waiting with baited breath to find out how this turns out. To be honest this thread has done a lot to restore my faith in humanity and the boating world. It's great to see experienced boaters happily offering their help and advice to a novice.

Quick thought  - would it be possible for the mods to put a sticky (or whatever it's called) creating a thread with advice for new buyers and boaters. Offering the sort of information that would help before any money changes hands. Obviously it would have to be fairly general in nature and wouldn't fit every situation, but it would serve as a valuable reference for newbies (and old hands). There's no reason why suggestions and advice couldn't be collated into a useful document.

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4 hours ago, Tanmim H said:

I am going on Friday taking my brother with me and I have questions to ask so I will ask who is the owner?

But you want it in writing, same with paperwork, he ll just say anything. 

Edited by LadyG
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43 minutes ago, LadyG said:

But you want it in writing, same with paperwork, he ll just say anything. 

A wee bit cynical, perhaps? 🙂 

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20 minutes ago, haggis said:

A wee bit cynical, perhaps? 🙂 

Let's look at just one thing. 

The OP is concerned about rust on the roof, it's not flaking paint, not a job the OP can do, but it was obvious, she took a photo, so in one way the broker can say that the price of the boat took that in to account. If the broker owns the boat he has a legal obligation to advise any naive buyer of the possible complications.

OP thought a bit of sandpaper and a coat of Hammerite would fix it. 

I am not sure if she has commissioned a Hull survey only, I don't think this would include the roof but I'm not sure. 

I have been diddled by people, they all seemed very nice until you triy to get your money / goods back.

Edited by LadyG
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1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I am not sure if she has commissioned a Hull survey only, I don't think this would include the roof but I'm not sure. 

 

 

Why do you bother commenting on things that you are 'not sure about' ?

 

Wouldn't it be better to simply comment on things that you do know about - it would vastly reduce the number of posts you make but it would help everyone.

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23 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Let's look at just one thing. 

The OP is concerned about rust on the roof, it's not flaking paint, not a job the OP can do, but it was obvious, she took a photo, so in one way the broker can say that the price of the boat took that in to account. If the broker owns the boat he has a legal obligation to advise any naive buyer of the possible complications.

OP thought a bit of sandpaper and a coat of Hammerite would fix it. 

I am not sure if she has commissioned a Hull survey only, I don't think this would include the roof but I'm not sure. 

I have been diddled by people, they all seemed very nice until you triy to get your money / goods back.

She has never said that she "thought a bit of sandpaper and a coat of Hammerite would fix it."  You attitude is not helping. 

 

 

 

Edited by Chagall
took out heat rather than spoil a good feel thread!
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8 minutes ago, Chagall said:

She has never said that she "thought a bit of sandpaper and a coat of Hammerite would fix it."  Your know it all attitude is not helping.  

Tbh I thought power jet wash, dry , sand it down and cover it with waterproof paint.🤦

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I can't see why a hull only survey would involve commenting on the roof unless the surveyor was either going beyond their remit or especially good spirited. If they aren't contracted to look at it it's not their job. Would they go and have a peek in the engine bay, just in case.

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1 minute ago, Tanmim H said:

Tbh I thought power jet wash, dry , sand it down and cover it with waterproof paint.🤦

Well Yes, that probably was a bit hopeful. 😀  Keep going, you will get the right advice. 

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10 hours ago, Ianws said:

I can't see why a hull only survey would involve commenting on the roof unless the surveyor was either going beyond their remit or especially good spirited. If they aren't contracted to look at it it's not their job. Would they go and have a peek in the engine bay, just in case.

 

They should do both because the cabin top and engine bilge is part of the hull.

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22 minutes ago, Feeby100 said:

Hull only is up to the gunwale 

 

 

That would appear to be incorrect, according to every article I have looked at, the general definition appears to be something like :

 

The hull of a ship is the most notable structural entity of the ship. To define the hull, it can be said that it is the watertight enclosure of the ship, which protects the cargo, machinery, and accommodation spaces of the ship from the weather, flooding, and structural damage. But this alone does not suffice our requirements of understanding all the aspects of a ship’s hull.

 

This definition from :

naval-architecture/hull-ship-understanding-design-characteristics/

 

 

It would be interesting if you could post the source of your definition.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That would appear to be incorrect, according to every article I have looked at, the general definition appears to be something like :

 

The hull of a ship is the most notable structural entity of the ship. To define the hull, it can be said that it is the watertight enclosure of the ship, which protects the cargo, machinery, and accommodation spaces of the ship from the weather, flooding, and structural damage. But this alone does not suffice our requirements of understanding all the aspects of a ship’s hull.

 

This definition from :

naval-architecture/hull-ship-understanding-design-characteristics/

 

 

It would be interesting if you could post the source of your definition.

 

Agreed, that is certainly the approach taken by all the surveyors I have worked with. 

 

However, the evidence will be interesting... I'm always happy to improve my knowledge based on supportable facts.

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The cabin is superstructure, not hull.  They are both shell, but it's not a shell survey.

 

Doesn't the VAT definition also claim the gunwales as the deck so the hull is below that level?

 

I'd certainly not expect a hull only survey to include the cabin condition, although any surveyor worth using would note it needing checking or mending. 

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1 minute ago, Feeby100 said:

I am going by what I was told by 3 surveyer when I phoned them all said this to me.

Sonitncome from the people that do surveys 

 

 

Would / could that be because it means they have to do more work ?

 

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Doesn't the VAT definition also claim the gunwales as the deck so the hull is below that level?

 

 

A deck is part of the hull.

The HMRC VAT rules say nothing to do with the 'hull', it is the volume of carrying space measured in tuns (not tons) and hence tunnage (evolved into tonnage)

 

Here is the actual HMRC notice (no mention of hull)

 

HM Revenue and Customs Brief 38/09 - Business Articles (scopulus.co.uk)

 

Ships, trains, aircraft and associated services (VAT Notice 744C) - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

2.10 How to calculate the gross tonnage of unregistered ships

Where the gross tonnage of a ship has not been calculated under the Merchant Shipping Acts it must be calculated for the purposes of VAT by using the following formula:

For vessels 24 metres or greater in length:
L (m) × B (m) x D (m) × 0.235

For vessels less than 24 metres in length:
L (m) × B (m) × D (m) × 0.16

Where:

L = Length measured from foreside of the foremost fixed permanent structure to the afterside of the aftermost permanent structure. This measurement must not include appendages that do not contribute to the volume of the vessel.

B = Beam - breadth of vessel at widest part to the outside of outer planking (hull outer surface). This measurement must not include the thickness of any moulding or rubbing strake which may be fitted, in way of such measurement.

D = Depth measured vertically from the midpoint overall.

The upper calculation point will be:

For a decked vessel, either the underside of the deck on the middle line, or, if there is no deck on the middle line the underside of the deck at the side of the vessel, plus the full deck camber. Camber can be taken as a ratio of 12:300 where not known.

For an open decked vessel - the top of the upper strake or gunwale.

The lower calculation point will be:

For a wooden vessel - the upper side of the plank at the side of the keel.

For a metal vessel - the top of the plating at the side of the keelson or, if of open trough construction, either the top of the keel fitting (if fitted), or the level at which the inside breadth of the trough is 10 centimetres, whichever gives the greatest depth.

For a moulded vessel (for example one made of glass-reinforced plastic) - the inside of the hull. Where no keel member is fitted and the keel is of open trough construction, the calculation point shall be the top of the keel filling, if fitted, or the level at which the inside breadth of the trough is 10 centimetres, whichever gives the greater depth.

2.11 Calculating the gross tonnage of multi-hulls, narrowboats and similar vessels

For multi-hull vessels, each hull must be measured separately for overall length, beam and depth and the vessel as a whole must be measured.

For narrowboats and similar vessels, the measurement must be taken from the underside of the deck at the side of the vessel, (plus the full deck camber as in paragraph 2.10, rather than from the roof of the cabin). Even if the side decks are very narrow or angled such that they are not ‘walkable’, they nonetheless represent the highest point to which the hull is watertight, and therefore are still considered decks. Where there are no identifiable side decks, the measurement must be taken to a line between the exposed decks at the fore and aft of the vessel.

In cases of dispute, HMRC will accept a certificate issued by a professional ship surveyor as decisive.

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