Radiator valves

[Jackofalltrades]

I wonder if there is such a thing as a valve that is normally closed (fitted at the end of the pipe run, connecting flow & return) but it opens when pipe pressure increases beyond a pre-set limit - such as when radiator TRVs reduce flow?

 

[GUMPY]

3 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

 

See, if something goes wrong with your heating you can always blame the doofus that originally fitted it. To my other half I will be that doofus.

 

Doesn't work like that for us especially as I have modified most of the systems on the boat.

On a previous boat one snowy Easter the mica window split in the Old Dutch, the Mikuni had already failed so we were left with the Sig Marine stove at the back of the boat for four days we still laugh about it now

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

I wonder if there is such a thing as a valve that is normally closed (fitted at the end of the pipe run, connecting flow & return) but it opens when pipe pressure increases beyond a pre-set limit - such as when radiator TRVs reduce flow?

 

Yes there is, Auto bypass valve. Not sure what pressure a Weber or Eber would need.

[Tracy D'arth]

24 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

 

Whoosh. that went straight over my head I'm afraid. Not sure where the mention of gas came from. I'm purely talking about pipe for wet heating systems to connect boiler to radiators & calorifier. If I do decide to use copper pipe for the heating system my usual port of call would be a plumber's merchant - not sure how that everyday regular plumbing pipe fits with your statement?

Table X is what you normally buy from a merchant, partly annealed during the final draws, bendable with a spring or bender up to 28mm sizes.

Thin wall hard drawn is not annealed as often during drawing, not bendable without splitting. Cheaper, used on big economy jobs only.

Soft drawn like gas and fridge  piping is annealed, easily bendable by hand. 

[Jackofalltrades]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Yes there is, Auto bypass valve. Not sure what pressure a Weber or Eber would need.

 

Ah, thanks. Off to google...

 

[Jackofalltrades]

This Installation guide for the Eber D4 states (P8) "Only overpressure valves with an opening pressure of min. 0.4 – max. 2 bar may be used in the coolant circuit." Can't find the D4E spec for the water pump - only had a quick look - but guessing it won't be much different.

https://www.butlertechnik.com/downloads/Eberspacher_heater_Hydronic_4_Hydronic_5_Marine_Installation_Guide.pdf

 

This looks like it might do the job: https://www.buildbase.co.uk/automatic-bypass-valve-du144-10030-2201311 with a differential pressure range 0.1 to 0.6 bar

 

[PineappleGuy]

When our Webasto was installed a couple of years ago, the engineer put organic (red) antifreeze in the system but emphasised that we should stick with inorganic (blue) for engine coolant. Others will know better than me whether this is important.

[Chewbacka]

2 hours ago, PineappleGuy said:

When our Webasto was installed a couple of years ago, the engineer put organic (red) antifreeze in the system but emphasised that we should stick with inorganic (blue) for engine coolant. Others will know better than me whether this is important.

Certainly mixing can be a bad idea as it might produce (depending on the coolants being mixed) ‘sandy’ deposits.

[jetzi]

Slightly related question - didn't want to start a whole new thread.

 

The coil in my new calorifier that will be run by my engine is higher than coolant cap on top of the engine.

 

How am I going to fill the coolant once this is installed? And won't the coolant in the coil, being higher than the overfow pipe, simply drain out until it's level with the top of the engine?

[Tracy D'arth]

5 minutes ago, jetzi said:

Slightly related question - didn't want to start a whole new thread.

 

The coil in my new calorifier that will be run by my engine is higher than coolant cap on top of the engine.

 

How am I going to fill the coolant once this is installed? And won't the coolant in the coil, being higher than the overfow pipe, simply drain out until it's level with the top of the engine?

It will give you a bit more room for expansion, the engine and the exhaust manifold, header tank will hold enough water to fill the coil when the engine starts but you may have to fit non return valves, not spring loaded ones, but try to avoid them if you can. You may have to resort to an extra high pressurised header tank with pressure cap on the high pipe of the coil to get rid of the air. Its a case of suck it and see.

[Tonka]

see the info in here. lots of good gen

Technical%20Bulletin%20281.pdf

[jetzi]

Thanks, I'll mount the calorifier as low as possible and use the lower coil for the engine, hopefully this will avoid needing a separate header tank.

 

Sense check before I go out and buy 100 litres of coolant on Monday - does that amount ring true? Seems like an awful lot for one boat, but as I need to minimise downtime I can't drain the coolant to see how much I need!

 

 

On 06/04/2021 at 18:18, jetzi said:

For the coolant:

• 2x skin tanks, external dimensions 1250x480x60 = 36 litres max each (if completely hollow and no skin thickness) = 72 litres
• 3x double panel rads 1000x600, assuming 10mm thickness uniformly (generous) = 0.6 litres each = 1.8 litres
• 1x Towel rail is 750*600, assuming 10mm thickness uniformly  = 0.45 litres
• Engine coolant capacity - 7.4 litres
• 30m of 22mm pipe run for the central heating system = 9.45 litres
• 4m of 2" pipe for the engine cooling system = 7.8 litres

Grand total of about 100 litres of coolant needed...

 

 

I think the advice to find an agricultural supplier is good. Also, need to find a tip near the canal that will take my old coolant. Any suggestions for either supplier or waste centre in the Shropshire area would be helpful (I hear Rugeley has a waste centre near the Trent & Mersey).

[Tony Brooks]

25 minutes ago, jetzi said:

Slightly related question - didn't want to start a whole new thread.

 

The coil in my new calorifier that will be run by my engine is higher than coolant cap on top of the engine.

 

How am I going to fill the coolant once this is installed? And won't the coolant in the coil, being higher than the overfow pipe, simply drain out until it's level with the top of the engine?

 

Unless you have left an air leak in the engine coil circuit then it can't really drain back much because if it did it would form a depression in the coil and that would "suck it back" or more likely stop it flowing.

 

Of more concern to me would be how to bleed the coil if it did not self bleed and you may have to fit a high level header tank to the cooling system above the coil level. As long as the hot take of is on the engine side of the water pump there is a very good chance it will self bleed on a modern engine because it would have been designed for a horizontal radiator for other applications. On older engines where the water pump was more of an assistance to thermo-syphon it may not self bleed.

 

 

[David Mack]

29 minutes ago, jetzi said:

Slightly related question - didn't want to start a whole new thread.

 

The coil in my new calorifier that will be run by my engine is higher than coolant cap on top of the engine.

 

How am I going to fill the coolant once this is installed? And won't the coolant in the coil, being higher than the overfow pipe, simply drain out until it's level with the top of the engine?

Had this problem with my old Citroen Xantia. The header tank was lower than the heater matrix. The Haynes manual pointed out that Citroen dealers have a special extension to fit to the neck of the header tank while filling and then bleeding the system. On completion you could close a valve on the bottom of the extension, so it could be removed without spilling much coolant. The manual also suggested you could improvise your own extension from an inverted plastic milk container with the bottom cut off inserted into the filler neck, with a rag wrapped around to form a better seal. I found it a bit messy, but it got my heater working again.

I'm sure you could do something similar.

Alternatively, can you fit a higher header tank to feed the one on the engine?

 

[Tracy D'arth]

10 minutes ago, jetzi said:

Thanks, I'll mount the calorifier as low as possible and use the lower coil for the engine, hopefully this will avoid needing a separate header tank.

 

Sense check before I go out and buy 100 litres of coolant on Monday - does that amount ring true? Seems like an awful lot for one boat, but as I need to minimise downtime I can't drain the coolant to see how much I need!

 

 

 

 

I think the advice to find an agricultural supplier is good. Also, need to find a tip near the canal that will take my old coolant. Any suggestions for either supplier or waste centre in the Shropshire area would be helpful (I hear Rugeley has a waste centre near the Trent & Mersey).

Buy 40 litres of concentrate and mix your own @30% . See how ear it goes. If short top up with water, measuring as you go.

If you need more you can add it later by dumping some out and adding more 30%

 

There is very little chance of an engine freezing if it has only say 10% as it is mostly below the canal level so can't get below 4 deg. C anyway in the UK. same with skin tanks.

 

Better to have the engine in the bottom coil as then you gat a full tank of hot water off the engine.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Tracy D'arth

[jetzi]

34 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Of more concern to me would be how to bleed the coil if it did not self bleed and you may have to fit a high level header tank to the cooling system above the coil level.

My plan was to include an air valve in a tee at the top of the coil (like you get in radiators) so that I could run the engine with it slightly open, pumping coolant into the calorifier circuit until I see coolant spewing forth, then close that valve. Turn off engine. Top up coolant. Repeat as needed. I have a vertical calorifier and a cruiser stern so there isn't a good place for a header tank inside the engine bay. However it's a fairly modern engine (Beta 38) and the current calorifier isn't much lower than the replacement, and that doesn't have any bleed valve or anything, so it seems it wasn't a problem last time.

 

35 minutes ago, David Mack said:

special extension to fit to the neck of the header tank while filling and then bleeding the system.

That's a pretty clever idea! I could just use a piece of plastic pipe, not too worried about spilling coolant... considering that I need 100 litres of the stuff!

 

32 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Buy 40 litres of concentrate and mix your own @30% . See how ear it goes. If short top up with water

I don't really want to use concentrate as my chief concern is preventing corrosion inside my engine and central heating system. So if I did do this I would want to use distilled water. So I figured I may as well use ready mix.

 

33 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

if it has only say 10% as it is mostly below the canal level so can't get below 4 deg. C anyway

But won't low concentration be lacking in corrosion-inibiting abilities and/or have a reduced heat capacity (and therefore poorer performance)?

[Tracy D'arth]

4 minutes ago, jetzi said:

My plan was to include an air valve in a tee at the top of the coil (like you get in radiators) so that I could run the engine with it slightly open, pumping coolant into the calorifier circuit until I see coolant spewing forth, then close that valve. Turn off engine. Top up coolant. Repeat as needed. I have a vertical calorifier and a cruiser stern so there isn't a good place for a header tank inside the engine bay. However it's a fairly modern engine (Beta 38) and the current calorifier isn't much lower than the replacement, and that doesn't have any bleed valve or anything, so it seems it wasn't a problem last time.

 

That's a pretty clever idea! I could just use a piece of plastic pipe, not too worried about spilling coolant... considering that I need 100 litres of the stuff!

 

I don't really want to use concentrate as my chief concern is preventing corrosion inside my engine and central heating system. So if I did do this I would want to use distilled water. So I figured I may as well use ready mix.

 

But won't low concentration be lacking in corrosion-inibiting abilities and/or have a reduced heat capacity (and therefore poorer performance)?

I bet the ready mix has never seen distilled water!  Distilled to prevent lime scale? Waste of money in my opinion, you are not changing the water every week.

The concentration has little to do with the corrosion inhibition and nowt to do with the cooling efficiency, even an advantage.

[GUMPY]

15 minutes ago, jetzi said:

I don't really want to use concentrate as my chief concern is preventing corrosion inside my engine and central heating system. So if I did do this I would want to use distilled water. So I figured I may as well use ready mix.

I just bought in concentrate and 25L deionised water, heating done got to refil the engine next week.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284037473194

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

35 minutes ago, jetzi said:

But won't low concentration be lacking in corrosion-inibiting abilities and/or have a reduced heat capacity (and therefore poorer performance)?

 

In fact its the other way round. Antifreeze has a lower specific heat capacity than water so carries less heat around. That is one reason we have a maximum of 50% mixture and I think Beta say 30%.

 

As the corrosion inhibitors are what gets "used up" I suspect  a lower percentage will not be less effective but would lose their effect faster than a higher percentage.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, jetzi said:

Thanks, I'll mount the calorifier as low as possible and use the lower coil for the engine, hopefully this will avoid needing a separate header tank.

 

Sense check before I go out and buy 100 litres of coolant on Monday - does that amount ring true? Seems like an awful lot for one boat, but as I need to minimise downtime I can't drain the coolant to see how much I need!

 

 

 

 

I think the advice to find an agricultural supplier is good. Also, need to find a tip near the canal that will take my old coolant. Any suggestions for either supplier or waste centre in the Shropshire area would be helpful (I hear Rugeley has a waste centre near the Trent & Mersey).

 

My 60 foot boat fitted with a Beta 43 engine takes 45 litres for the engine cooling system and 25 litres for the Webasto heating system (3 double rads and a heated towel rail).

 

This uses about 23 litres of antifreeze for the engine 50/50% mix) and 8 litres for the heating (33% mix).

 

However, all boats are different so it is difficult to make exact comparisons.

[PineappleGuy]

7 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

Certainly mixing can be a bad idea as it might produce (depending on the coolants being mixed) ‘sandy’ deposits.

Yes, I can believe that. What I was wondering was, if you are starting from two empty systems (engine and heating) does it matter which type of antifreeze you put into each system? For example, might the organic variety be less aggressive in plastic pipework?

[jetzi]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

In fact its the other way round. Antifreeze has a lower specific heat capacity than water so carries less heat around.

Interesting, so is the "antifreeze and summer coolant" term they always use just marketing? Would water perform better than antifreeze (apart from the freezing and corrosion).

 

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I bet the ready mix has never seen distilled water!  Distilled to prevent lime scale? Waste of money in my opinion, you are not changing the water every week.

The concentration has little to do with the corrosion inhibition and nowt to do with the cooling efficiency, even an advantage.

Apologies, I meant de-ionised water. Intention is to reduce the corrosion. It's minimal compared to the cost of the antifreeze so I'd rather use the recommended stuff.

 

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

My 60 foot boat fitted with a Beta 43 engine takes 45 litres for the engine cooling system and 25 litres for the Webasto heating system (3 double rads and a heated towel rail).

 

This uses about 23 litres of antifreeze for the engine 50/50% mix) and 8 litres for the heating (33% mix).

 

However, all boats are different so it is difficult to make exact comparisons.

Thanks, it's helpful to have an idea - I think that my 100litre in total is an overestimation, but it's in the ballpark.

 

 

Is it a good idea to try to flush out the system with clean tap water before I refill it? There is a fine bit of orange powder (i assume rust) on the existing pipes from the heating system.

[cuthound]

10 hours ago, PineappleGuy said:

Yes, I can believe that. What I was wondering was, if you are starting from two empty systems (engine and heating) does it matter which type of antifreeze you put into each system? For example, might the organic variety be less aggressive in plastic pipework?

 

I don't think so. I use organic (red) Ford Ultra Premium 10 year antifreeze in both my engine and central heating system as  changing the antifreeze is a pain on my boat.

[Tony Brooks]

I also used longer life red in both heating and engine systems (Alde 2000 series and Bukh).

 

9 hours ago, jetzi said:

nteresting, so is the "antifreeze and summer coolant" term they always use just marketing? Would water perform better than antifreeze (apart from the freezing and corrosion).

 

Water will carry more heat around the system but if it carries more heat than the car radiator, your skin tank, or the heating system can get rid of then it won't make any difference. This assumes you understand the difference between heat capacity and temperature. However, engines and gas/oil central heating systems are controlled by thermostats so they have a material effect on system performance, all these things probably have more effect  than the antifreeze.

 

If you don't know the history of the system I would use a cooling system cleaner as per the instructions on the can and when that is drained out flush it a couple of times with fresh water only. That is fill with water, run until hot circulating for several minutes and drain again. That is what I do when I changed my antifreeze.

 

Perhaps you don't remember but at one time we drained and flushes car cooling systems in the spring, ran on water through the summer and then refilled with antifreeze for the winter. In those days summer coolant was important to minimise internal corrosion, especially on engines with aluminium in contact with the coolant. Nowadays with long life antifreeze the antifreeze does the corrosion protection all the year round as long as people do not keep it in use well beyond its service life.

[jetzi]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

If you don't know the history of the system I would use a cooling system cleaner as per the instructions on the can and when that is drained out flush it a couple of times with fresh water only. That is fill with water, run until hot circulating for several minutes and drain again. That is what I do when I changed my antifreeze.

 

Makes sense. Could I ask specifically what brand and what quantity you used?

 

Since the engine cooling system is huge, I'm going to need comparatively more of the flush product, right? Sticking with the Prestone brand, it comes in a 1 litre bottle for around 12 gbp, which is intended to do a car system which is typically less than 10 litres. It's not going to be affordable to buy 8 of these (100 quids worth) to do one flush!

 

I presume the output of this flush also needs to be disposed of as hazardous waste by taking it to the tip for recycling?