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Brian Spooner / Wild Rose... Is anyone familiar?


NB DW2

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Hi,

 

I've seen a boat advertised (link below) which I like the look of.  It's an owner fit out by Brian Spooner on an Elton Moss shell.  I've searched the forum and found and the builder and boat crop up on "BCN challenges"...though I'm not sure what they are.

 

The boat doesn't have an RCD as it would've been exempt with it not being sold until 9 years after it was built.  Am I right in saying that's not something to worry about now that the BSC supercedes this?

 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/narrow-boats-traditional-for-sale/660825

 

Thanks

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14 minutes ago, NB DW2 said:

The boat doesn't have an RCD as it would've been exempt with it not being sold until 9 years after it was built.  Am I right in saying that's not something to worry about now that the BSC supercedes this?

 

 

If the boat was built after 1998 then although the RCD may not have applied, the builder is still criminally responsible if you die because of a failure of the boat due to something he did / didn't do. (Hopefully that gives you a warm glow that your family will be provided for)

 

If the boat was built to be sold, then the RCD does apply - the exemptions are for self-build boats and commercial builders must, by law, build in compliance with the RCD.

 

The BSS does not supercede the RCD - totally different,

The RCD ensures that the boat is built correctly and safe to use, the BSS means that it will not kill any passers-by, C&RT employees or other boaters. It does not mean that the boat is 'sea-worthy', it is not a condition report on the boat, and it does not mean it could not kill you.

 

From the BSS :

 

About the BSS Examination and its limitations

Please note: the BSS Examination findings, and examination report, relate only to the facts observed at the time of the BSS Examination. It is not evidence of compliance with the navigation authorities’ requirements at any other time.

The owner’s on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority.  The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made; or if a hire boat or other type of non-private boat is examined against the ‘private boat’ category of BSS checks.

A BSS examination and examination report relates only to the relevant version of the BSS Examination Checking Procedures published on boatsafetyscheme.org. Depending upon the nature of the specific check, the examination may be confined to items that can be seen, reached or touched.

A BSS examination is not a full condition survey, nor is it an indication that the vessel is fit for purpose.  For example, it does not cover the condition of the hull or deck, the integrity of through-hull fittings or the stability of the boat and it isn’t the same as having your boat serviced and doesn’t check its general mechanical condition.

Prospective boat purchasers are strongly advised to satisfy themselves about all aspects of a vessel’s condition by commissioning a pre-purchase survey before committing themselves to becoming new owners. Some surveyors are also authorised BSS Examiners and may be willing to carry out a BSS examination whilst surveying the craft if contracted so to do.

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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14 minutes ago, NB DW2 said:

Hi,

 

I've seen a boat advertised (link below) which I like the look of.  It's an owner fit out by Brian Spooner on an Elton Moss shell.  I've searched the forum and found and the builder and boat crop up on "BCN challenges"...though I'm not sure what they are.

 

The boat doesn't have an RCD as it would've been exempt with it not being sold until 9 years after it was built.  Am I right in saying that's not something to worry about now that the BSC supercedes this?

 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/narrow-boats-traditional-for-sale/660825

 

Thanks

When my boat is sold it wont have a RCD ether, mine is now 20 years old.

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2 minutes ago, NB DW2 said:

So one to give a miss then?

 

The original owner who did the fit out kept it the best part of a decade before selling it.  Does that qualify as it being 'built to be sold'?

Not really, Lots of professionally fitted boats with an RCD the people who built them are no longer around, It all depends on the quality of the fitout. some are better than a cheap professional job and some are poor.

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2 minutes ago, NB DW2 said:

So one to give a miss then?

 

The original owner who did the fit out kept it the best part of a decade before selling it.  Does that qualify as it being 'built to be sold'?

 

 

There should still be all the RCD paperwork from the hull builder that sold the Hull to whoever fitted it out.

Called "Anexxe IIIA" paper work which confirms that the Hull was built in accordance with the requirements - it was obviously a commercial deal as the Hull was sold to the person who fitted it out.

 

There are a lot of Inland waterway boats that have missing paperwork, you know what it should have, if it doesn't then its your choice to buy or walk away.

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18 minutes ago, NB DW2 said:

Thank you.

 

So if the annex paperwork is there - and presumably I could also check with Elton Moss now I have the HIN - it's not something necessarily to worry about?

 

I wouldn't worry.

I bought a boat in Croatia without the RCD documentation but was not allowed to leave the EU until I had the correct paperwork - they take the RCD much more seriously that the UK Inland waterways boaters do.

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The seller is adamant it doesn't need the RCD - I know it doesn't(!) - when asked about the annex you mention. 

 

The shell was actually built by "CMN" and bought through Elton Moss.  I've never heard of them.  I'd feel more comfortable if it were an Elton shell but no idea where CMN come in.

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Forget about the RCD.  AdeE loves to recite the rules and regulations and he's always technically correct, but in practice you don't need to consider the RCD at all on a 9 year old narrowboat. IMHO.

You need to:

1. Satisfy yourself that the boat is safe for you, for you to use at the time you get it (regardless of whether it was when it was built).

2. Satisfy yourself that it is at least as safe as required by the BSS for others if you use it.

 

 

 

 

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First thing you need to do is sort the solar cabling out. Very thin twin core from panel feed(large voltage drop) and then 2 red cables down to batteries(or to inverter). The negative needs to be black as if you disconnect everything to work on the batteries or other electrics, reconnecting the wrong way round could cost you a packet.

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27 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Forget about the RCD.  AdeE loves to recite the rules and regulations and he's always technically correct, but in practice you don't need to consider the RCD at all on a 9 year old narrowboat. IMHO.

 

Yes I am correct, but, maybe you missed the post number ?? where I said "I wouldn't worry about it".

 

Buyers need to be aware of how things 'should be' and once they know that, they can make an informed decision as to how they proceed.

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We've lived for over ten years on a boat with an owner fit out and no RCD. So far so good.

 

There are a fair few little fit out errors but the boat has a lovely feel to it. We looked at some professional fit-outs and they were more like offices than boats ?.

 

.....................Dave

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52 minutes ago, NB DW2 said:

The seller is adamant it doesn't need the RCD - I know it doesn't(!) - when asked about the annex you mention. 

 

The shell was actually built by "CMN" and bought through Elton Moss.  I've never heard of them.  I'd feel more comfortable if it were an Elton shell but no idea where CMN come in.

I didn't know Elton Moss built hulls. You wont find the builder of my hull, he packed up not long after I launched it, but its a lot better shape than lots of the well known builds out there today. 

I have found at least 4 other boats build by CMN on Canalplaner https://canalplan.org.uk/boats/boats.php

 

Edited by ditchcrawler
Added info on cmn
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12 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I didn't know Elton Moss built hulls. You wont find the builder of my hull, he packed up not long after I launched it, but its a lot better shape than lots of the well known builds out there today. 

I have found at least 4 other boats build by CMN on Canalplaner https://canalplan.org.uk/boats/boats.php

 

I think Elton Moss were once known as Northwich Boats.  I'm sure I read on here they were built in Czech.

 

The shell looks like it has some of the traits of a decent build - vents look to be built into the hull rather than having louvre vents on the doors etc.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Quick update...

 

Part way through the survey.  The boat hasn't been stamped with a HIN.  Elton Moss confirmed they wouldn't have stamped it with a HIN with it being bought as a sailaway, so no surprise there.

 

They did however confirm it would have an annex 3 certificate as a sailaway but the owner can't find it.

 

I'll have to see what Ricky Tropman says but he reckons on it potentially being a problem years on depending on regulation changes.  In which case a survey of some sort might be required before sale, I cannot remember the type mentioned, but potentially at a cost of 3k...

 

The nerves are kicking in now.

 

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21 hours ago, NB DW2 said:

I cannot remember the type mentioned, but potentially at a cost of 3k...

 

Post construction assessment for the RCD.

 

Note that the three grand is for the survey and paperwork only, altering stuff to bring it into compliance could be a lot more!

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5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Post construction assessment for the RCD.

 

Note that the three grand is for the survey and paperwork only, altering stuff to bring it into compliance could be a lot more!

 

That's the one.  And you're right, that's the best case scenario.  Worst case refusal to certify and a thousands more to put right, potentially.

 

I've pulled out of the sale on this basis.  I'm down a grand for the survey and craning fees but better that than the alternative. 

 

The easy thing would've been to press on and go ahead but I know the issues would've niggled away at me and always been at the back of my mind, worrying over potentially selling it in the future and associated difficulties.  This would have defeated the object of buying it; something to enjoy and take pleasure in. 

 

There'll always be another one.  Perhaps the market will pick up and more will come up for sale now boats can travel.

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28 minutes ago, NB DW2 said:

 

That's the one.  And you're right, that's the best case scenario.  Worst case refusal to certify and a thousands more to put right, potentially.

 

I've pulled out of the sale on this basis.  I'm down a grand for the survey and craning fees but better that than the alternative. 

 

The easy thing would've been to press on and go ahead but I know the issues would've niggled away at me and always been at the back of my mind, worrying over potentially selling it in the future and associated difficulties.  This would have defeated the object of buying it; something to enjoy and take pleasure in. 

 

There'll always be another one.  Perhaps the market will pick up and more will come up for sale now boats can travel.

 

You could always offer ten grand less as is for a gamble ...

 

Liability legally remains with the first person to place it on the market, not subsequent owners.

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Thanks.  Liability in what respect?  Getting the certification?

 

The owner was up for taking an offer on the basis of the feedback from the survey, and even had he accepted ten grand less, I'm not sure I'd have gone ahead.  Ten grand is a decent wedge of money but peace of mind and no anxiety is priceless.

 

I can fully understand others who wouldn't care so much and would've gone ahead and I'm sure it'll sell to somebody who'll care less than I do.

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43 minutes ago, NB DW2 said:

Thanks.  Liability in what respect?  Getting the certification?

The legal requirement for the boat to comply with the RCD only applies to the person who first places the boat on the EU market, or who puts the boat back into service after certain significant changes. So in general there is no liability attached to a subsequent owner of a second hand boat. I.e. in terms of legal requirements, non availability of RCD documentation is just not an issue. 

But some people take comfort in the fact that the paperwork exists.

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31 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The legal requirement for the boat to comply with the RCD only applies to the person who first places the boat on the EU market, or who puts the boat back into service after certain significant changes.

 

Correct.

The amendments in 2017 now mean that the RCD is for life and any changes must be made to be compliant, as you say, 'major modifications' to anything that can affect the safety or emissions of the vessel (eg, replacement engines, replacement gas system, alterations to buoyancy / stability etc) will require a PCA (post construction assesement)

 

Whether the owner decides to do it is another matter, but the person who has made the modifications then becomes legally responsible for its compliance to any subsequent owners.

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