Painting outside of a narrow boat

[mark99]

 

Tanmin,

 

Sorry to ask again; if you intend living on it have you researched mooring/living on a boat and the rules where to moor/when you have to move/how far etc?

 

Some Brokers entrap the unwary with such adverts as "your new home" without explaining the things you have to comply with which could ultimately end up with your boat possibly siezed.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by mark99

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, mark99 said:

 

Tanmin,

 

Sorry to ask again; if you intend living on it have you researched mooring/living on a boat and the rules where to moor/when you have to move/how far etc?

 

Some Brokers entrap the unwary with such adverts as "your new home" without explaining the things you have to comply with which could ultimately end up with your boat possibly siezed.

 

 

 

Those of us who have been around canal boats for years tend to joke that the particular marina say goodbye to the boater who tend to buy from then by saying "turn right for London". You may have done all you can to find out what is required of you but so far there seem to be enough indication that you are naive in things boating and probably have little idea about the need for moorings, how long you can stay in one place and so on. We get that impression from probably hundreds of similar questions in the past. Mark is right to be concerned for you, You may well be heading towards an awful lot of extra expense mooring wise or all but fighting for scarce moorings every 14 days or less and having to move a fair distance over a few months. If you don't have a mooring and if you are planning to go to London then you also face  problems in refilling with water, disposing of rubbish and emptying your toilet. Such facilities are scarce in the London area. For an easer life you need to plan on commuting.

 

Very happy to be told all this is wrong in your case.

[GRLMK38]

11 hours ago, matty40s said:

Basically, for both newbys buying boats....if the survey should find faults and more than 10% of the boats selling price is found in faults needing fixing(not just BSS stuff, but welding,,engine/gearbox faults etc etc), you should be able to walk away with your deposit back.

Matty's right but "should" is not always the case.  Ultimately the "10%" and "walk away" caveats will come down the term and conditions you agree with the seller.  It is really important to read these terms (and when you have read them, read them again!) before committing to anything, especially handing over cash.  Head must rule heart in this situation.  If in doubt, ask somebody with contractual experience.  It's not just the deposit at risk here, you are likely to spend a not insignificant sum on the survey so getting it wrong is not a nice start to your boating experience.

[enigmatic]

53 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Although boats  prices have gone silly over the last year my view is that this one is probably about the right price for one in good condition but to me, it seems overpriced with that roof and the poor paintwork. Again. I hope others with more recent price experience will give their opinion.

Based on recent prices it looks like a good boat (assuming roof damage is either superficial or fixed at owner expense as a result of the survey) which is good value if you DIY the repaint and not too far over the odds with a pro paint job.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Based on recent prices it looks like a good boat (assuming roof damage is either superficial or fixed at owner expense as a result of the survey) which is good value if you DIY the repaint and not too far over the odds with a pro paint job.

 

It's the London white that concerns me, if it was a doerupper goodness knows what has been hidden under the panels and floor where a surveyor has no or very little access. I agree that the chimney/roof  needs fixing PROPERLY (not a scrunch hammer and a skim of filler) at the owners expense.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It's the London white that concerns me, if it was a doerupper goodness knows what has been hidden under the panels and floor where a surveyor has no or very little access. I agree that the chimney/roof  needs fixing PROPERLY (not a scrunch hammer and a skim of filler) at the owners expense.

 

 

We should also consider the reputation of the broker.

 

How many boats have left there, having had a 'good survey', headed for London and then sunk on the way ?

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

We should also consider the reputation of the broker.

 

How many boats have left there, having had a 'good survey', headed for London and then sunk on the way ?

 

Now what was the saying from Yes Minister? I think we need to be a bit careful if we spell it out.

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

I can't see any mention of a fridge which seem odd.

 

 

It does say Shoreline fridge in the bumph, but I think someone has half inched it from the hole to the left of the cooker.

[haggis]

It seems to suggest that the lights are not 12v. Does this mean that the boat has always been connected to shore power? 

 

haggis

[enigmatic]

Think people can overly worry about the "London white". A lot of people just like a lighter colour or want to hide completely superficial stuff like marks from previous owners sticking pictures up. Mine got painted London offwhite by owners who then lived in it 5 years, epoxied the hull twice during that time period, got a professional signwriting job done and ended up swapping it for a tug.

 

Everything that's nearly 30 years old is going to be done up to some extent, and with this one at least you can imagine someone actually being minded to live there, they've left behind plenty of the original dark wood panelling including round the windows which looks in OK state, and the surveyor isn't likely to miss the signs of possible water ingress round the mushroom vents...

 

Now it looks like the paint is still fresh, like this one https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/5455.aspx you raise an eyebrow ?

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Now it looks like the paint is still fresh, like this one https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/5455.aspx you raise an eyebrow ?

 

 

You forget how awful a 'London' narrowboat can look.

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Think people can overly worry about the "London white". A lot of people just like a lighter colour or want to hide completely superficial stuff like marks from previous owners sticking pictures up. Mine got painted London offwhite by owners who then lived in it 5 years, epoxied the hull twice during that time period, got a professional signwriting job done and ended up swapping it for a tug.

 

Everything that's nearly 30 years old is going to be done up to some extent, and with this one at least you can imagine someone actually being minded to live there, they've left behind plenty of the original dark wood panelling including round the windows which looks in OK state, and the surveyor isn't likely to miss the signs of possible water ingress round the mushroom vents...

 

Now it looks like the paint is still fresh, like this one https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/5455.aspx you raise an eyebrow ?

 

I agree if you are on the boat and know what you should be looking out for but the white paint is just one thing, it's the roof, the paintwork, and the brand-new toilet. Individually they may not indicate anything could be amiss but taken together plus no signs of the fridge in the photos makes me think it may have a bit of recent history.

[matty40s]

28 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

 

 

Now it looks like the paint is still fresh, like this one https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/5455.aspx you raise an eyebrow ?

You would raise an eyebrow using the shower , yes!!

[blackrose]

14 hours ago, Tanmim H said:

Maybe you can give some more tips and show me some picS of your work. I will appreciate that.

 

 

I've posted this picture on other threads before. It's the bottom of a locker but it shows that you can get rid of the rust down to the bottom of pits with an angle grinder/wire wheels. It's very unpleasant and dirty work but it can be done. The corners need a bit more work or you could use vactan.

 

My tips are make sure you're wearing PPE (eye protection, ear defenders, leather gloves - a mask is a good idea too but tends to steam up the goggles) and keep the angle grinder cable well away from the rotating wire wheel.

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by blackrose

[enigmatic]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I agree if you are on the boat and know what you should be looking out for but the white paint is just one thing, it's the roof, the paintwork, and the brand-new toilet. Individually they may not indicate anything could be amiss but taken together plus no signs of the fridge in the photos makes me think it may have a bit of recent history.

if I was fixing a boat up to flip I'd have made some effort to hide that roof before I stuck luxuries like a washing machine and wall decorations in there!

 

I got a new Porta potti for the simple reason the owners took the original toilet with them, but other reasons for new toilets exist of course.

There's a boat which has been on the market for a year now which would probably have sold pretty quickly if they'd taken the not-originally-green toilet bowl out and stuck a cheap Porta Potti in there!

 

[Tony Brooks]

 

 

And how long before you took the photo did you complete the job? It looks like only a day or so to me. No dust/dirt in the pits.

 

So to be clear all the pits came up to bright metal and absolutely no rust of blackened bits of steel were left in the bottom of the pits.

 

A sanding/grinding disc certainly can't do it until all the high spots have been ground down and I have yet to find a cup brush of any sort that can get right into the bottom of all the pits. Many. Most of them, yes, but not all.

 

Doing the best one can and then "killing" any residual rust seems just good sense to me.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

if I was fixing a boat up to flip I'd have made some effort to hide that roof before I stuck luxuries like a washing machine and wall decorations in there!

 

We all probably would, but for London wanabee floating-flat owners it is all about the inside and designer stuff. The 'shell' is irellevant.

Hence all the posts "just bought a boat and this has happened ....................."

[manxmike]

1. I hope the deposit paid is refundable 

2. I trust the agreement to buy is subject to a survey

3. Looking at the rust on the roof I would seriously consider losing the deposit and running away as fast as possible.

4. If the roof is that bad, what else is hiding under the paint? I would worry about the condition of the hull below the waterline.

5. That price is very high for something that old with that amount of visible damage.

6. There are a number of very good surveyors out there, I have used Mike Chadwick in the past (07798 897397) and found him fair and reliable.

7. Good luck, the boat that's perfect for you is out there!

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

And how long before you took the photo did you complete the job? It looks like only a day or so to me. No dust/dirt in the pits.

 

So to be clear all the pits came up to bright metal and absolutely no rust of blackened bits of steel were left in the bottom of the pits.

 

A sanding/grinding disc certainly can't do it until all the high spots have been ground down and I have yet to find a cup brush of any sort that can get right into the bottom of all the pits. Many. Most of them, yes, but not all.

 

Doing the best one can and then "killing" any residual rust seems just good sense to me.

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? I can't really remember when that photo was taken. It was about 3 years ago. I may have carried on with the prep after the photo was taken. The reason there's no dust or dirt is simply because the it been vacuumed out.

 

I can't say that no rust remained, if you look closely enough you can see some residual brown colour in the pits but I was using two pack epoxy over it which is very surface tolerant and can easily cope with that. On a microscopic level you'll never get rid of every atom of oxidised steel. It's not an absolute, it's about getting the prep where it needs to be.

 

As I said earlier, wire wheels are what I used and they will get into the pits, cups can be used for more difficult to access areas and then narrower wire brushes can be used on a drill to get into the corners. You might find it difficult to believe that prep was done with an angle grinder and wire wheels, but I used to do this for a living so I do know what I'm doing when it comes to steel prep.

Edited April 5, 2021 by blackrose

[Tony Brooks]

So you pained over residual rust and that is not typically quoted as best practice.

 

You used a small wire brush in a drill, I used a stone in a Dremel like tool, its basically the same thing. You painted over residual rust while I advocated an extra step in making some attempt to treat the residual rust. I am sure neither method would meet the paint manufacturer's specification though. I also think that the inside of a locker where its somewhat protected from the weather faces the same challenges for the coating system that a boat roof does where it's exposed to the rain and acid and tar run off from the chimney.

[Murflynn]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

So you pained over residual rust and that is not typically quoted as best practice.

 

You used a small wire brush in a drill, I used a stone in a Dremel like tool, its basically the same thing. You painted over residual rust while I advocated an extra step in making some attempt to treat the residual rust. I am sure neither method would meet the paint manufacturer's specification though. I also think that the inside of a locker where its somewhat protected from the weather faces the same challenges for the coating system that a boat roof does where it's exposed to the rain and acid and tar run off from the chimney.

 

apart from your suggestion to use a "rust-killer", I find your argument difficult to follow.  Mike's use of an epoxy coating that will fill the depressions, where a tiny bit of surface rust remains, sounds like satisfactory practice, bearing in mind that epoxy will totally seal the surface of the metal from any moisture ingress - but of course a paint manufacturer will always require an Sa2.5 or equivalent preparation, just to cover their backsides.

 

I can't see that painting the inside of a locker compares with painting around and underneath a chimney collar at any level.

 

 

 

Let us hope that Tanmim is able to walk away from the deal, if she wishes, without significant financial loss, possibly with the assistance of an unbiased surveyor.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Murflynn

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

 

apart from your suggestion to use a "rust-killer", I find your argument difficult to follow.  Mike's use of an epoxy coating that will fill the depressions, where a tiny bit of surface rust remains, sounds like satisfactory practice, bearing in mind that epoxy will totally seal the surface of the metal from any moisture ingress - but of course a paint manufacturer will always require an Sa2.5 or equivalent preparation, just to cover their backsides.

 

I can't see that painting the inside of a locker compares with painting around and underneath a chimney collar at any level.

 

 

 

Let us hope that Tanmim is able to walk away from the deal, if she wishes, without significant financial loss, possibly with the assistance of an unbiased surveyor.

 

First of all its not an argument, its stating different views for the same problem but from my point of view advising someone who is obviously new to boating and asking for advice to use an epoxide coating that is typically considered needs professional application is not the best advice. Of course that's in my view.

 

Secondly a normal (traditional) paint film is not damp proof as has been proven by micro-blistering under snow. Also it is known that it can be difficult to get sufficient paint film thickness on sharp edges such as you may find in areas at certain points around a large rust pit.

 

Thirdly, as I suspected, Blackrose has admitted he did not get the pits back to bright metal, he also now admits it needs more than an angle grinder.

 

I simply think his advice could all too easily lead to the job needing doing again in a year or two and with the degree of rusting shown its probably not a bright idea to use harsh de-rusting methods on a frequent basis.

 

Hopefully if Tanmim is trapped into buying the boat or still wants to she can read the different views and hopefully talk to others to decide which advice is most appropriate in her particular case.

[Murflynn]

48 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

First of all its not an argument, its stating different views for the same problem but from my point of view advising someone who is obviously new to boating and asking for advice to use an epoxide coating that is typically considered needs professional application is not the best advice. Of course that's in my view.*

 

** Secondly a normal (traditional) paint film is not damp proof as has been proven by micro-blistering under snow. Also it is known that it can be difficult to get sufficient paint film thickness on sharp edges such as you may find in areas at certain points around a large rust pit.

 

Thirdly, as I suspected, Blackrose has admitted he did not get the pits back to bright metal, he also now admits it needs more than an angle grinder.

 

I simply think his advice could all too easily lead to the job needing doing again in a year or two and with the degree of rusting shown its probably not a bright idea to use harsh de-rusting methods on a frequent basis.

 

Hopefully if Tanmim is trapped into buying the boat or still wants to she can read the different views and hopefully talk to others to decide which advice is most appropriate in her particular case.

 

* Mike's comments referred to his locker, not the OP's dilemma.

 

** I think you are misrepresenting what Mike wrote and meant.

 

 

............... 'nuff said, let's remain available to assist Tanmim if she requests it.

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

So you pained over residual rust and that is not typically quoted as best practice.

 

You used a small wire brush in a drill, I used a stone in a Dremel like tool, its basically the same thing. You painted over residual rust while I advocated an extra step in making some attempt to treat the residual rust. I am sure neither method would meet the paint manufacturer's specification though. I also think that the inside of a locker where its somewhat protected from the weather faces the same challenges for the coating system that a boat roof does where it's exposed to the rain and acid and tar run off from the chimney.

 

Tony, with respect, you don't know what you're talking about. Have you actually read and understood what I wrote in my previous post?

 

I was using Jotamastic 87 two part epoxy. Have you ever used it? If you had and had read the technical data sheets you'd understand that's it's a very surface tolerant paint and as I said in my previous post can easily cope with the level of residual rust shown in my picture. 

 

I also said in another post that vactan could also be used so I wasn't disagreeing with you about that. It's not as good as epoxy but not everyone is technically proficient with a more technical paint system.

 

The bottom of locker shown in my picture fills up with water which is why it was so badly corroded. It's pretty much impossible to stop the water getting in and there's always a puddle in the bottom but it's now sealed in epoxy and corrosion proof. You'd never be able to achieve that level of protection with vactan and single part paints. I doubt I'll need to repaint the bottom of that locker for 10 years.

 

I'd never question what you were saying about diesel engines for example, as you're a well-respected expert. By the same token I'm afraid you'll just have to defer to me on this particular subject. I'm not saying I'm an expert but my knowledge does exceed yours.

Edited April 5, 2021 by blackrose

[blackrose]

59 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

First of all its not an argument, its stating different views for the same problem but from my point of view advising someone who is obviously new to boating and asking for advice to use an epoxide coating that is typically considered needs professional application is not the best advice. Of course that's in my view.

 

 

You need to re-read the thread Tony. I can only assume you're confused.

 

I never advocated the use two part epoxy to the OP, I was only responding to you about that. The OP asked me for an example of steel prep so I posted the picture which she asked for. I said nothing about using any two part epoxy to her. 

 

7 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

* Mike's comments referred to his locker, not the OP's dilemma.

 

** I think you are misrepresenting what Mike wrote and meant.

 

 

............... 'nuff said, let's remain available to assist Tanmim if she requests it.

 

Thank you. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by blackrose