Board Feet Insulation

[David HK]

Does anyone have the board feet number applicable to spray foam installation for a 57 Trad boat?

[David Mack]

Since a board foot is a North American measure for the volume of timber (being 1/12 of a cubic foot), it is not really a sensible unit for spray foam volume.

That said, it is pretty straightforward, if you know the dimensions of your boat, to work out the volume of sprayfoam required. In practice you would be better specifying the area to be covered and the minimum thickness.

Edited April 3, 2021 by David Mack

[David HK]

I just want to know in whatever way is understandable. How much foam do I need to spray a 57 trad.  

Someone must have done it here and there is no way I am paying 1700 to 2K for someone to come in for a couple of hours work.

[frangar]

6 minutes ago, David HK said:

I just want to know in whatever way is understandable. How much foam do I need to spray a 57 trad.  

Someone must have done it here and there is no way I am paying 1700 to 2K for someone to come in for a couple of hours work.

Have you not thought that its not just labour you are paying for...but the kit/skill/insurance/etc? If you are thinking of doing it yourself with a kit from eBay then I just you have all the required PPE...air fed mask...full cover overalls etc etc. There is actually quite a high risk to you if you get it wrong.

 

If you must save a few quid then look at doing it with kingspan panels or similar. 

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, David HK said:

I just want to know in whatever way is understandable. How much foam do I need to spray a 57 trad.  

Someone must have done it here and there is no way I am paying 1700 to 2K for someone to come in for a couple of hours work.

length of the cabin side times height of the cabin side times thickness of foam times two plus width of roof times length of cabin times thickness of foam plus area of front bulkhead times thickness of foam plus area or rear bulkhead times thickness of foam PLUS all you are going to drop on the floor because you have never done it before. I expect the foam is sold by the liter so you also need to know the expansion ratio of the foam you buy

Only you know all those numbers.

[BEngo]

If you are thinking of doing it with cans of foam, forget it.  Proper foam is sprayed on as a hot liquid ( heated and mix of two chemicals in the gun), then expands on the metal.  Can foam is pre mixed, designed to fill gaps, and hard to get to stick on vertical surfaces and near impossible overhead.

If you want to diy, use sheet Kingspan 50mm thick. Stick it on with gripfill or similar, or wedge it between stiffeners.   Al  foil tape the joints to maintain the vapour barrier.

 

N

 

[David HK]

14 minutes ago, frangar said:

Have you not thought that its not just labour you are paying for...but the kit/skill/insurance/etc? If you are thinking of doing it yourself with a kit from eBay then I just you have all the required PPE...air fed mask...full cover overalls etc etc. There is actually quite a high risk to you if you get it wrong.

 

If you must save a few quid then look at doing it with kingspan panels or similar. 

I am a full trained long time served engineer.  I can rent the kit and aware of all the HSE stuff. Thanks .  Spray cleaned and blasted my fair share of ships tanks. I also understand a fair hourly rate so the prices I see just rub me up the wrong way considering the cost of materials and rental costs.

 

8 minutes ago, BEngo said:

If you are thinking of doing it with cans of foam, forget it.  Proper foam is sprayed on as a hot liquid ( heated and mix of two chemicals in the gun), then expands on the metal.  Can foam is pre mixed, designed to fill gaps, and hard to get to stick on vertical surfaces and near impossible overhead.

If you want to diy, use sheet Kingspan 50mm thick. Stick it on with gripfill or similar, or wedge it between stiffeners.   Al  foil tape the joints to maintain the vapour barrier.

 

N

 

Why would i do it the way you suggest? Don't think I ever implied that. Kingspan is an alternative for budget builds but it way behind in thermal efficiency and the risk of building in air and condensation pockets and thermal breaks is not something I need.

Edited April 3, 2021 by David HK

[dmr]

1 hour ago, David HK said:

I am a full trained long time served engineer.  I can rent the kit and aware of all the HSE stuff. Thanks .  Spray cleaned and blasted my fair share of ships tanks. I also understand a fair hourly rate so the prices I see just rub me up the wrong way considering the cost of materials and rental costs.

 

Why would i do it the way you suggest? Don't think I ever implied that. Kingspan is an alternative for budget builds but it way behind in thermal efficiency and the risk of building in air and condensation pockets and thermal breaks is not something I need.

 

Kingspan and other PIR insulations actually have the same (or slightly better) material performance (K factor) as spray foam. Hence if you do a really top job with Kingspan job it will be as good or better than sprayfoam. There are some reports that sprayfoam degrades a bit with age as the insulation gas is slowly replaced with air which is more conductive.

Kingspan is often thicker than what can typically be achieved with sprayfoam, but getting it to fit perfectly with no air gaps is very time consuming, and the curved roof is a challenge.

 

.................Dave

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, David HK said:

Kingspan is an alternative for budget builds but it way behind in thermal efficiency and the risk of building in air and condensation pockets and thermal breaks is not something I need.

There have been plenty of stories on here of sprayfoam jobs that have been too thin or missed areas, like under the gunwales or around battens.

Edited April 3, 2021 by David Mack

[Murflynn]

3 hours ago, David HK said:

I just want to know in whatever way is understandable. How much foam do I need to spray a 57 trad.  

Someone must have done it here and there is no way I am paying 1700 to 2K for someone to come in for a couple of hours work.

 

as a "full trained long time served engineer" you will certainly be aware that you need to specify the way the amount of foam is to be measured.  For example is it the quantity of foam components you need to buy, or is it the final expanded volume of the foam? 

 

as a "full trained long time served engineer" you will already know the "formula" quoted by Ditchcrawler, so it rather begs the question why you can't do the sums for yourself.

 

as a "full trained long time served engineer" you will certainly be aware that elfinsafety practices require you to be "full trained" in the trade you intend to follow.  For all we know you may be an IT engineer, an aerospace engineer, a pharmaceutical engineer, or many other professions that have no connection with spray-foaming (which is of course a semi-skilled trade, not an engineering discipline).

 

hope this helps

 

Murflynn    BSc, MICE, CEng.

[David HK]

11 hours ago, David Mack said:

There have been plenty of stories on here of sprayfoam jobs that have been too thin or missed areas, like under the gunwales or around battens.

..... and perhaps that is my reason to want to do it myself as the final arbiter of quality. Doesn't have to be pretty as it's covered anyway.

[David HK]

10 hours ago, Murflynn said:

 

as a "full trained long time served engineer" you will certainly be aware that you need to specify the way the amount of foam is to be measured.  For example is it the quantity of foam components you need to buy, or is it the final expanded volume of the foam? 

 

as a "full trained long time served engineer" you will already know the "formula" quoted by Ditchcrawler, so it rather begs the question why you can't do the sums for yourself.

 

as a "full trained long time served engineer" you will certainly be aware that elfinsafety practices require you to be "full trained" in the trade you intend to follow.  For all we know you may be an IT engineer, an aerospace engineer, a pharmaceutical engineer, or many other professions that have no connection with spray-foaming (which is of course a semi-skilled trade, not an engineering discipline).

 

hope this helps

 

Murflynn    BSc, MICE, CEng.

as a " fully trained long time served engineer " who doesn't see the need to suffix his professional quals on a canal boat forum but, if you insist,  BTec Cert and Dip Mechanical and Marine Eng (Distinction ), BSc, SSME, AMC, BWC, MQC, UWC, Charge ( Submarines),  Sub qual Pt 3 (Dolphins), Horse, JICE, SICE, ELBD (Qual), SSMEO (Tons), CinC Fleet Eng Specialist, CELTA.  Oh and I don't pay for those memberships of "professional" boards that give you those letters after your name in return for  a subscription ( just like a dodgy builder with guild "membership". )  I am enquiring of those with EXPERIENCE. and not relying solely of internet published figures.   Maybe it works differently in CIVIL Engineering but in my 50 years of marine engineering, EXPERIENCE trumps an algorithm / formula / calculation every time.  Thanks for your bitchy input to a valid enquiry.

[Mad Harold]

4 hours ago, David HK said:

as a " fully trained long time served engineer " who doesn't see the need to suffix his professional quals on a canal boat forum but, if you insist,  BTec Cert and Dip Mechanical and Marine Eng (Distinction ), BSc, SSME, AMC, BWC, MQC, UWC, Charge ( Submarines),  Sub qual Pt 3 (Dolphins), Horse, JICE, SICE, ELBD (Qual), SSMEO (Tons), CinC Fleet Eng Specialist, CELTA.  Oh and I don't pay for those memberships of "professional" boards that give you those letters after your name in return for  a subscription ( just like a dodgy builder with guild "membership". )  I am enquiring of those with EXPERIENCE. and not relying solely of internet published figures.   Maybe it works differently in CIVIL Engineering but in my 50 years of marine engineering, EXPERIENCE trumps an algorithm / formula / calculation every time.  Thanks for your bitchy input to a valid enquiry.

That's a lot of qualifications !

Reminds me of when I was at music collage,my harmony prof had so many letters after his name,his office door wasn't big enough to get them all on!

[frangar]

Just now, Mad Harold said:

That's a lot of qualifications !

Reminds me of when I was at music collage,my harmony prof had so many letters after his name,his office door wasn't big enough to get them all on!

We had a head of department like that at the council...the letterheads had to be redesigned to fit them all in...the alternative department Xmas card that year rather poked fun at that...turns out one of his qualifications wasn’t a sense of humour......

[Murflynn]

You have completely missed the point.

 

With a long list of engineering qualifications I do not understand why you cannot compute the area and volume of the foam, unless you are floundering about in the dark, being unable to define whether you are asking for (a) the purchasing requirement of the components or (b) the final volume.   The final volume is easily calculated for YOUR boat but only you know all the dimensions and your thickness requirement.   A minute's research will provide the expansion parameter for your chosen foam.

 

I am also surprised that you believe you have the skills to do a job like sprayfoaming which, if it is to be done to a good standard (as you have now confirmed), requires loads of practice.  In particular, as an obviously enormously experienced engineer, you will be aware of the HSE implications that, if followed, would require you to undergo training before being allowed out on your own.  

 

Oh, and by the way, I never never insert my qualifications unless the subject comes up, for example where someone describes himself as "full trained long time served engineer" but appears to be unable to apply engineering principles to resolve this query.  Your sarcastic comments about subscriptions for professional institution membership indicate that you have little knowledge of my industry.  The ICE is the oldest professional institution and membership is mandatory for holding positions of technical responsibility and requires a minimum of 3 years relevant and documented professional post-graduate experience.  Membership of the Chartered Engineering Institute is not subject to a subscription or (in my day at least) even an application - it is awarded to the individual as recognition of his experience on the recommendation of the professional institution, and is the UK definition of an Inginieur (Europe) or PE (USA), equivalent to the title of MD (Doctor) for example.

 

Good luck.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Murflynn

[nb Innisfree]

Oh, I feel all inadequate with my zero qualifications ?

[Ironmaiden]

As a, "fully trained long time served engineer" you wouldn't touch spray foam in a steel boat in damp condions with a "barge pole" 

Kingspan, cellotex etc the way to go. Boat totally unrepairable if spray foamed, I know from bitter experiences (take note of the plural) 

[Feeby100]

Being that you so well educated how come you cannot work out a simple volume equation 

And it the material that cost a lot and the tools 

you have to pay the price

 

[dmr]

Spray foam application is a skill so totally unrelated to academic and engineering qualifications.

There are many reports on this forum of "professionals" doing a poor job so unless the OP has related skills he might struggle to get a good result. I suspect its like spray painting but much worse, applied too thickly and it all slumps.

 

I suspect the OP can easily work out surface areas but that's the easy bit and the exact expansion of the foam is a bit variable.

 

This gives the answers:

 

https://www.abbuildingproducts.co.uk/touch-n-foam-600-spray-foam-insulation-kit-inc-15ft-hose.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwx6WDBhBQEiwA_dP8reUCqZJgBShbjkZHLdX2MuyL9wEpRVrO8GxzdNR0nquXMrwpGKaypRoC7sUQAvD_BwE

 

So its £600 for 50m2 at 25mm thick.

 

The OP might just get away with two packs (at 25mm thick), but if his inexperience leads to a lot of wasteage, especially doing the roof,  he might just need a third. That would be £1800 so makes a professional job look like a very good option.

 

.............Dave

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

45 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

That's a lot of qualifications !

Reminds me of when I was at music collage,my harmony prof had so many letters after his name,his office door wasn't big enough to get them all on!

 

I once new a guy who had so many degrees we nicknamed him 'compass'.

[Joe Bourke]

20 hours ago, David HK said:

Does anyone have the board feet number applicable to spray foam installation for a 57 Trad boat?

Hello David. If I was to do it. Sufficient spray foam for 900 sq feet at 2" thickness. That's my guestimate anyway. ?.  Don't under estimate the skill required though. I've watched them many a time. It can get very messy when things go wrong.

 

Come on folks give the guy a break..

[Murflynn]

1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

Oh, I feel all inadequate with my zero qualifications ?

 

nah, the University of Life is all that matters after a certain age  

11 minutes ago, Joe Bourke said:

Hello David. If I was to do it. Sufficient spray foam for 900 sq feet at 2" thickness. That's my guestimate anyway. ?.  Don't under estimate the skill required though. I've watched them many a time. It can get very messy when things go wrong.

 

Come on folks give the guy a break..

 

yeah, it is the day of resurrection after all  -  although come to think of it He had no qualifications whatsoever 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Murflynn